Help Needed

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This isn't strictly true. It is possible in some settings to have more than one. FREX an Elf Vampire. Or in Transhuman Space, where most infomorph characters have at least two templates (one for software, and one the hardware shell).

Yes, some settings allow more than one and they're a headache. If a character can become a vampire, you're better off saying he must drop his old racial template and gain the Vampire one; or make Vampire a meta-trait that can be added to a character. The reason people think up Elf Vampire is to retain the racial skills when they become a vampire. Of course, if you avoid racial skills, you don't have this problem; the character would retain their memories and hence, their skills. Note that an elf who became a vampire would still look like an elf, for the most part.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not sure what you mean here. Firstly, you can modify racial templates, and the rules are there in that chapter. If Dwarves have Greed(12) [-15] for instance, you can take the advantage "Not Greedy" [15] or increase Greedy to (6) for [-15]. Secondly, what do Meta-Traits have to do with it? A robot template might Machine and AI, why does that let a player modify the template in a way they otherwise can't?

You can modify racial templates to create new racial templates. If a player wants a non-greedy dwarf, he takes the Dwarf template and buys off (Basic Set, p. 121) the disadvantages or he takes a unique creature that looks like a Dwarf. And it should have its own racial template.

You're correct about meta-traits. I was thinking they act like the old 3e lenses. Since they don't, they can't modify racial templates.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Also not necessarily true. Innate Racial Spells for instance will be skills. Purely instinctual abilities FREX AI in your setting naturally have Computer Operation at IQ, or even learned skills that are generally universal to the race can also appear on racial templates. In addition templates can have racial skill bonuses.

Making skills a part of a racial template becomes a headache in campaigns where racial templates can change. If you want archery as a skill for elves, you are better off creating an Elf racial template and an Elf-culture character template. That way, when (and that's when, not if) a player wants to play an Elf that can't shoot, it's easy to accommodate him.

Racial skill bonuses should be considered an advantage, not a skill.

[teviet]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

You can modify racial templates to create new racial templates. If a player wants a non-greedy dwarf, he takes the Dwarf template and buys off (Basic Set, p. 121) the disadvantages or he takes a unique creature that looks like a Dwarf. And it should have its own racial template.

I disagree. Many racial advantages and disadvantages, particularly leveled ones or mental ones, set a racial baseline, and individuals will have some variation without being a "different race". A non-Greedy Dwarf is not a separate racial template, any more than a Greedy or Charitable Human is a racial template.

Certain non-leveled physical or exotic advantages and disadvantages may be considered essential to the race, and would require special allowance to remove. As always, the player should consult with the GM.

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

Making skills a part of a racial template becomes a headache in campaigns where racial templates can change. If you want archery as a skill for elves, you are better off creating an Elf racial template and an Elf-culture character template. That way, when (and that's when, not if) a player wants to play an Elf that can't shoot, it's easy to accommodate him.

This is one way to go, and certainly gives you flexibility to present realistic nonhuman species that do not have monolithic cultures. But as we know from the RW, "race" is a fuzzy concept that can depend more on cultural identity than on physiology, so the distinction of "racial" vs. "cultural" templates is somewhat arbitrary.

TeV

[OneSeventeen]

Originally Posted by teviet

This is one way to go, and certainly gives you flexibility to present realistic nonhuman species that do not have monolithic cultures. But as we know from the RW, "race" is a fuzzy concept that can depend more on cultural identity than on physiology, so the distinction of "racial" vs. "cultural" templates is somewhat arbitrary.

Well, no. Consider that, here, the word "race" is actually meant to be a synonym for "species" (or a close synonym, if you want the ability to cross-breed). My point is that he's saying you might have a race (species) that has eyes that will interpret a slightly wider range of light wavelengths than humans (add infra-red, say), but that not all of them would value the same things, be citizens in the same government, speak the same language or even share the same TL.

Personally, I don't use a lot of templates, but that's just me, I'm sure. I'm just trying to help clear up what I perceive to be a miscommunication. I hope I didn't make it worse.


Ben

[teviet]

Originally Posted by OneSeventeen

Well, no. Consider that, here, the word "race" is actually meant to be a synonym for "species" (or a close synonym, if you want the ability to cross-breed).

There is some support for this: "These rules define a race as a single, distinct nonhuman species" (among other things, B260), and "you must normally take all the traits in a racial template" (B261). But the rules also say that the traits should define "the race's physiology, its psychology, ... and even its dominant culture" (B260). So obviously some flexibility is required.

Basically a racial template can be used for any group of "things", of which a character can be a member, that has certain characteristic traits. An Elf might not be a biologically distinct species (a Hobbit certainly would not be), but would still have a racial template. A "racial" template need not refer to a biological category at all (e.g. a robot, or an order of angels). And some variation from the racial norm should be expected (an unusually charitable Dwarf, an individual robot with higher HT or ST).

Note that B454 describes how to "opt out" of individual racial traits. With GM permission, of course, but any interesting PC should be built in consultation with the GM.

BTW, I actually do like Shawn's approach of separating physiological meta-traits from cultural ones (insofar as it's possible for a given race). I did the same thing for most of the races in my fantasy world. But I would use that as a matter of convenience, not a strict rule.

Originally Posted by OneSeventeen

Personally, I don't use a lot of templates, but that's just me, I'm sure. I'm just trying to help clear up what I perceive to be a miscommunication. I hope I didn't make it worse.

Nah, that's fine. The statements on B260 are a bit contradictory; I think we're all just offering our own flavour, based on what we've found useful.

TeV