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Old 07-01-2011, 12:25 PM   #31
Jason
 
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
But when a normal, honest, native English speaker uses them, they're telling the truth. Isabel Sanford is Isabel and is also called Isabel.

The angel, by contrast, is putting on a disguise. She may well be called Isabel by others, but she isn't Isabel -- not in a real, true sense of the phrase. So one can be true and one a lie.
That's pretty much my take -- and for that reason, I see it as okay for a Seraph to say "My name is Isabel" if her True Name ("Promise of God") really does translate pretty directly into Isabel. For that reason, I see it as a kindness to let players name their Seraphic PCs things that could actually be common names, if they so choose, just so they don't get caught up in this nit-picky minefield. My GM let me play a Seraph named Simon Brandt, as his True Name is "Simon [he who has heard] of the Sword." The only real trickiness is with Seraphim with clearly zany Biblical/Enochian names. If you're named something like "Girga****e [he who arrives from a pilgrimage]," you should probably get into the habit of introducing yourself with, "Please, call me Greg."

EDIT: Little did I know that the forums would censor Biblical names for naughty words. Hah!
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
For that reason, I see it as a kindness to let players name their Seraphic PCs things that could actually be common names, if they so choose, just so they don't get caught up in this nit-picky minefield.
And depending on how tight or loose you want to be, translations of names could be acceptable as well. If an angel's true name is the equivalent of Petros/Peter, calling yourself "Rocky" might be just fine.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:22 PM   #33
Matthias Wasser
 
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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I don't know if I agree with that. When someone says "my name is Isabel," I take that to mean that their formal first name, as printed on their identification/birth certificate/taxes/whatever. If someone says "I'm called Isabel" then I get the immediate impression that it's a nickname, middle name or, well something that's not their formal first name.
Well, there are certainly contexts where "name" means "the character string on file with the government" - as when filling out forms, or whatever - but in any event getting that kind of paperwork in order is (one assumes) one of the more trivial tasks involved when the Host sets up a Role. (That process must involve a lot of lying, to be sure, but Seraphim presumably aren't assigned to it.) In any event I wouldn't say that societies without such forms of infrastructure don't have names!

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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
But when a normal, honest, native English speaker uses them, they're telling the truth. Isabel Sanford is Isabel and is also called Isabel.

The angel, by contrast, is putting on a disguise. She may well be called Isabel by others, but she isn't Isabel -- not in a real, true sense of the phrase. So one can be true and one a lie.
I'm not sure I see the distinction you're making here - again, it sounds like the difference between punching people in a boxing ring for your daily bread and being a professional boxer. But we may just have different experiences with the language, idunno.
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:21 AM   #34
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser View Post
I'm not sure I see the distinction you're making here - again, it sounds like the difference between punching people in a boxing ring for your daily bread and being a professional boxer. But we may just have different experiences with the language, idunno.
No, you're simply being tighter about lying than a Seraph assigned to Earth is likely to be.

What you're saying is that you would find it wrong -- possibly even dissonant -- for a Seraph to even deliberately leave an incorrect impression with his words. This is the theoretical Seraph ideal -- certainly God doesn't go around leaving false impressions, or so most would believe. It is also the Dissonance Condition of the angels of Revelation, so clearly at least one Archangel Seraph agrees with you as a practical matter, and probably Dominic would like to. Michael, on the other hand, emphatically does not.

It's generally held, though, that Michael's Seraphim are on average far more comfortable operating in the muddy Truths of Earth than Dominic's or Litheroy's. Most other Choirs consider half-truths and misimpressions to be part of the compromises Seraphim have to make on Earth, like a Malakite biting back his anger at one evil when chasing another, or a Cherub having to let his charge wander around blissfully unaware of every danger under the sun.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:45 AM   #35
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

Here is my thought on it all...

If a Seraph wants absolute, perfect truth...stay in Heaven.

Earth, and the very nature of man, make such absolutes impossible. The fact that a Seraph has to take on a ROLE when on earth? In my mind a Role is a mask an angel uses when here, by it's very nature deceitful. If a Seraph is going to be on Earth, he is going to have to accept that they are practicing some sort of deceit. But he accepts it because it is for the greater good, and he doesn't get dinged for it because it is the Symphony's dictate that is needs to be done.

So, I would venture to say that Seraphs understand that profanity is a metaphor used to express frustration an similar emotions. It is not taken at face value by people, it is understood to be a means of emphasizing something. Many times the profanity isn't even taken to be a part of the sentence. Whether he chooses to use it is entirely up to him. If he doesn't then it's something his Role chooses not to do for whatever reason. It becomes one of the quirks of his mask that he is known for.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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Assume for a moment that a Seraph, unlikely as it sounds, has a Role as a gang member, a wiseguy, or some other occupation where profanity is a near-mandatory first language. How close can the Most Holy fly to the wind without being caught in the literal meaning of the expression?

Can he call someone the classic MF title, even if he knows the person has never comitted incest with the appropriate parent?

Can he shout at someone to "Open the F'ing door," even though it is impossible that the object has ever been used for copulation?

Can he shoot down a lie by saying "That's (bull excrement)," even though the words bear no actual resemblance to pastoral manure?

For that matter, can he call someone an S.O.B (unabbreviated), despite the fact that there are no canines anywhere in the individual's ancestry?

In short, where do you draw the dissonance line?

It's an odd subject, but as strange as my group gets, it may come in handy someday ....

Most swearing is either nominal blasphemy(when someone says d___it he usually does not want the object spoken of sent to eternal perdition), or degradation of physical functions. An angel would not blaspheme nominally or otherwise. He would not use the F-word as he would have a healthy, neither ascetic nor libertine, respect for a process designed to allow Godly couples to enjoy pleasure together and bring up children to be raised in love, in a Godly family. The F-word is a vulgarity that implies that the process must needs be dirty and isn't a turn-on if one doesn't think it dirty. An angel would not say SoB because someone who is the son of a wanton woman would attract the angels pity not contempt. An angel would not use swear words based on biological waste because an angel would have no need to be interested in it, unless the human under the angels care had an embarrassing health issue, in which case the angel would of course care that he is suffering. And an angel would not have disorderly emotions so it would have no motive to swear.

Profanity is a reflection of being a fallen human. A hypothetically pristine human would have his emotions in order and his spiritual function would get along with his biological so he would not find biology awkward. A fallen angel would have no motive to use any profanity but blasphemy(unless he was deliberately trying to make himself unpleasant to humans) and those would be real blasphemies not figurative ones. A non-fallen angel would not blaspheme at all. And again it's interest in biology would be intellectual interest, glorying in God's creation, and protective sympathy for the humans under it's charge. An angel would not have to deal with the awkwardness of being both a spirit and an animal. So it would have no reason to swear.
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:29 AM   #37
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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No, you're simply being tighter about lying than a Seraph assigned to Earth is likely to be...
Actually, I agree entirely that Truths on Earth (I'd extend that to Heaven, too) are likely to be muddy. It's just that I think it's necessary to take alignment between internal thought and communicative intent, rather than "literal meaning," as the standard by which Truth is measured - because the latter implies that a certain dialect of English is the metaphysical baseline (rather than whatever dialect the Seraph itself is trained in.)

One stereotype floating around of Seraphim is that of the uptight pedant, and those who only have proficiency in academic English are likely to behave that way. But the same motives and personality traits will lead a Seraph educated in a different dialect to something like the "honest member of the lower classes" stereotype - one apt to blurt out "bull****!" whenever the shoe fits (another bit of metaphorical language I suspect to be a Seraphic favorite.)

Last edited by Archangel Beth; 07-03-2011 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Fixing the profanity filter by hand.
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Old 07-02-2011, 11:14 AM   #38
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser View Post
Actually, I agree entirely that Truths on Earth (I'd extend that to Heaven, too) are likely to be muddy. It's just that I think it's necessary to take alignment between internal thought and communicative intent, rather than "literal meaning," as the standard by which Truth is measured - because the latter implies that a certain dialect of English is the metaphysical baseline (rather than whatever dialect the Seraph itself is trained in.)

One stereotype floating around of Seraphim is that of the uptight pedant, and those who only have proficiency in academic English are likely to behave that way. But the same motives and personality traits will lead a Seraph educated in a different dialect to something like the "honest member of the lower classes" stereotype - one apt to blurt out "bull****!" whenever the shoe fits (another bit of metaphorical language I suspect to be a Seraphic favorite.)
An angel would probably have an academic knowledge of the meaning of swear words, I doubt it would "blurt" anything because it has to much control over itself.
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Last edited by Archangel Beth; 07-03-2011 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Fixing the (quoted) profanity filter by hand.
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Old 07-02-2011, 03:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

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An angel would not say SoB because someone who is the son of a wanton woman
Jordi's lot might say it, but it would be a statement of fact about a canine. Or, possibly, a respectful term for Mowgli (and any actual wild children), though "stepson" would be more accurate.
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Old 07-02-2011, 05:36 PM   #40
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Default Re: Seraphim and Profanity

A couple of thoughts...

Profanity: In Quebecois French (not Parisian or Provencial French), many of the swear words are based on elements of the Catholic Mass. Would a Seraph use them?

Names: You can call me Rob. I call me Rob. However, my name is Robert. Would a Seraph make the distinction?
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