Non-missile Weapons / Engaged Status / Defending

[TedT]

Again, a request for point of clarification. When engaged, can you attack with a Thrown Weapon? "(j) attack with any non-missile weapon." If in this case "non-missile" means to exclude everything that isn't a true "missile" weapon, then it would appear that someone throwing a dagger can do so when engaged by a foe wielding a mace.

Further to this, if the dagger-thrower in the scenario throws at the mace wielder while they're engaged, does the mace-wielder Dodge or Defend? It seems a bit much to permit throwing weapons while engaged, whilst denying the foe the chance to dodge because he's engaged.

And thirdly on this, page 117 of ITL spells out specifically that Dodging only works against missile spells, and thrown and missile weapons. But the rules for Defending do not explicitly rule out defending against a thrown weapon attack. "Defending is effective only against non-missile physical attacks." Furthermore, the GM Screen states "(k) Defend" against "thrown weapons or regular 'melee' attacks."

When engaged by the mace wielder above, if you find his adjDX of 5 makes him not of much concern, you may not Dodge against his friend's heavy crossbow bolt, but it appears you may at least Defend against his other friend's flying dagger.

[Axly Suregrip]

Q1) "Again, a request for point of clarification. When engaged, can you attack with a Thrown Weapon?"

A1) Yes. There is instructions in a Death Test room where the foes will engage with one of your guys and then throw their weapons at others. So, yes engaged characters may throw at anyone in front of them, both engaged and not engaged with them.


Q2) "Further to this, if the dagger-thrower in the scenario throws at the mace wielder while they're engaged, does the mace-wielder Dodge or Defend?"

A2) Engaged figures may not Dodge.


Q3) "And thirdly on this, page 117 of ITL spells out specifically that Dodging only works against missile spells, and thrown and missile weapons. But the rules for Defending do not explicitly rule out defending against a thrown weapon attack.... Furthermore, the GM Screen states "(k) Defend" against "thrown weapons or regular 'melee' attacks." "

A3) I have always played that Defend was for none missile or thrown attacks; and Dodge was for against missile and thrown. So the Legacy GM Screen stating Defending is effective against thrown weapons is news to me. Since it is on the GM Screen I will now start using it.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

Q3) "And thirdly on this, page 117 of ITL spells out specifically that Dodging only works against missile spells, and thrown and missile weapons. But the rules for Defending do not explicitly rule out defending against a thrown weapon attack.... Furthermore, the GM Screen states "(k) Defend" against "thrown weapons or regular 'melee' attacks." "

A3) I have always played that Defend was for none missile or thrown attacks; and Dodge was for against missile and thrown. So the Legacy GM Screen stating Defending is effective against thrown weapons is news to me. Since it is on the GM Screen I will now start using it.

Yeah, that GM Screen information is news to me too. I mentioned the possibility of defending (and parrying) thrown weapons in this post, only to dismiss it. I guess you can defend against thrown weapons.

Which leaves open the question whether one can parry a thrown weapon. Doesn't sound plausible, but defending is simply a different mechanic for parrying and parrying (Two Weapons talent, ITL 41) is also described as used for non-missile attacks from a front hex, so it's not all that clear to me after all.

Consistency seems to suggest you can defend or parry thrown attacks from an adjacent hex, though parrying is only good for attacks from the front while defending has no such restriction.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by TedT

Again, a request for point of clarification. When engaged, can you attack with a Thrown Weapon? "(j) attack with any non-missile weapon." If in this case "non-missile" means to exclude everything that isn't a true "missile" weapon, then it would appear that someone throwing a dagger can do so when engaged by a foe wielding a mace.

Further to this, if the dagger-thrower in the scenario throws at the mace wielder while they're engaged, does the mace-wielder Dodge or Defend? It seems a bit much to permit throwing weapons while engaged, whilst denying the foe the chance to dodge because he's engaged.

And thirdly on this, page 117 of ITL spells out specifically that Dodging only works against missile spells, and thrown and missile weapons. But the rules for Defending do not explicitly rule out defending against a thrown weapon attack. "Defending is effective only against non-missile physical attacks." Furthermore, the GM Screen states "(k) Defend" against "thrown weapons or regular 'melee' attacks."

When engaged by the mace wielder above, if you find his adjDX of 5 makes him not of much concern, you may not Dodge against his friend's heavy crossbow bolt, but it appears you may at least Defend against his other friend's flying dagger.

I think you have it exactly right. I also view thrown weapons as non-missile melee attacks. Meaning engaged and disengaged figures can throw attack with thrown weapons, and that targets can defend (as well as dodge) against them

I appreciate you quoting the rules here, as I didn't realise they so specifically and consistently identify "non-missile" attacks in the defend and attacking options.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Consistency seems to suggest you can defend or parry thrown attacks from an adjacent hex, though parrying is only good for attacks from the front while defending has no such restriction.

Defending against attacks from the side and rear seems consistent with RAW (which don't discuss facing and Defending afaik). However, we've always viewed the requirement for a ready weapon in order to defend (and the fact that ready weapons only project into front hexes) to mean that Defend is only effective against attacks from the front.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by RobW

Defending against attacks from the side and rear seems consistent with RAW (which don't discuss facing and Defending afaik). However, we've always viewed the requirement for a ready weapon in order to defend (and the fact that ready weapons only project into front hexes) to mean that Defend is only effective against attacks from the front.

Yes, that's a pretty reasonable inference, but it's a drastic change in effect. Because the rules explicitly mention facing for parrying in two weapons talent and not in Defend, I've decided to go with RAW and have no such requirement. Thematically, I'm with you, but I think the rules intentionally allow defending from a rear attack.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Yes, that's a pretty reasonable inference, but it's a drastic change in effect. Because the rules explicitly mention facing for parrying in two weapons talent and not in Defend, I've decided to go with RAW and have no such requirement. Thematically, I'm with you, but I think the rules intentionally allow defending from a rear attack.

I am with RobW on this. I think it strongly implies facing for defending. The defending section even talks about how defending is parrying. From ITL pg 117 "A figure must have a physical weapon (staff, sword, club,
etc.) in hand in order to defend; this weapon is used for
parrying. You may “parry” with a bow or crossbow – but it
will be ruined!"

And it even talks about how images cannot defend because they have no substance to block the blow. Not something one typically does behind themselves. With the exception of a martial arts expert, and UC4 includes Eyes Behind in its evade ability for that case.