Military roleplaying: line troops or special operations?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Basic problem is that someone with experience does rapidly become significantly stronger than an average civilian. 14 may be excessive, I was being pretty lazy in my build, but unless you reduce average guy to 9, hard to generate the difference without some elvation of strength).

Average couch potato is more of an 8 than a 9 in ST/HT and Unfit.

I'd say just going through basic adds +1/+1 to +2/+1 to ST and HT, removes Unfit and hopefully adds Fit.
Which means most people coming out of basic should at ST 10-11 with +1 Lifting ST, and HT 10-11 with +1 FP and Fit, even though they went into basic with ST/HT 8 or 9, those who don't get past their 8s get washed out.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I agree that ST 14 is excessive, but 'without feeling it' is not implied at any level of ST. Due to the 'heroic average' of characters, any discomfort and difficulty that is less than something that would stop a person from functioning if the alternative is death is glossed over.

By "feeling it" I specific was implying the use of Extra Effort.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

By "feeling it" I specific was implying the use of Extra Effort.

Which will put someone down on the ground in less than 15 seconds, usually. Obviously, the real world has a far finer granularity than GURPS, but in general, when someone can finish an obstacle course or perform a task, even if it is monstrously difficult for him, I tend to think that using Extra Effort is not appropriate. Under GURPS rules, no one who is human can run for a minute or two carrying Extra Effort level loads.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A lot of the expectation of needing high points is inflation of expected stats and skills. You can have a plausible enough grunt with:
ST 11 (lifting ST +3) [19]
DX 10 [0]
IQ 9 [-20]
HT 10 [0]
Fit [5]
Guns(Rifle)-12[4]
Hiking-9 [1]
Savoir-Faire(Military)-10[1]
Wealth: Struggling [-10]

Total 0 points. Sure, it's not a particularly heroic character, but it's plenty to count as a 'regular' by 3e mass combat standards, or as 'average' troops by 4e mass combat.

There is nothing plausible about people who lack their primary Job skill being posited as an average example.

Soldier ought to be 12 if you want to reflect a 'grunt' as someone who is at least a minimally competent member of his unit. Also, Savoir-Faire (Military) is every bit as much a Job skill for peacetime soldiers, at least. Ought to be 12 as well.

In a military force that can afford to do as much training as the modern US one, you might find that secondary skills tend to be higher, as well. Closer to professional levels. Light infantry is probably professional level at Hiking, at least once they've finished AIT and done some months in service.

Using Dabbler or otherwise, you need to get Spear, Knife, Electronic Operation (Communications), Forward Observer, Observation, Brawling and probably Driving to skill level 8-10, at least. That's supported by multiple 3e sources and what 4e material has appeared doesn't contradict it. Stealth, Camouflage and Survival will also tend to be 10+ with infantry. Then there is Navigation, which has to be at least skill 8 and a host of other secondary and tertiary skills which require at least some level of Dabbler.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There is nothing plausible about people who lack their primary Job skill being posited as an average example.

Soldier ought to be 12 if you want to reflect a 'grunt' as someone who is at least a minimally competent member of his unit. Also, Savoir-Faire (Military) is every bit as much a Job skill for peacetime soldiers, at least. Ought to be 12 as well.

In a military force that can afford to do as much training as the modern US one, you might find that secondary skills tend to be higher, as well. Closer to professional levels. Light infantry is probably professional level at Hiking, at least once they've finished AIT and done some months in service.

Using Dabbler or otherwise, you need to get Spear, Knife, Electronic Operation (Communications), Forward Observer, Observation, Brawling and probably Driving to skill level 8-10, at least. That's supported by multiple 3e sources and what 4e material has appeared doesn't contradict it. Stealth, Camouflage and Survival will also tend to be 10+ with infantry. Then there is Navigation, which has to be at least skill 8 and a host of other secondary and tertiary skills which require at least some level of Dabbler.

those sources are also later in the 3E era... during the creep of point totals towards 150 for normal games.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

those sources are also later in the 3E era... during the creep of point totals towards 150 for normal games.

Realistically, people who practise a certain skill will be better at it than those who do not. Any game-mechinical representation which makes a character whose career includes regular training for a given task no better at it than a random bystander is probably flawed.

Does this mean that most careers require a long list of skills at level 8-12? Yes. That's realistic. Most people who are professionally competent are not just using one skill, all the time.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Does this mean that most careers require a long list of skills at level 8-12? Yes. That's realistic. Most people who are professionally competent are not just using one skill, all the time.

Unless that skill adequately substitutes for those other skills for most job uses. If you give grunts Electronics Operation, Engineer (Combat), Mechanic (Internal Combustion Engine), Survival (a couple of disparate climes),Urban Survival, Navigation(Land), and so on there's little reason to give them Soldier. There's also little realism, I can operate a few common radios better than most other grunts, dig a fighting hole, do maintenance on a HMMV or MRAP, survived to be rescued if separated from my unit in deserts, woodlands, and mountains, know a little about urban architecture as it relates to MOUT, and read a map and use a compass to basically navigate but I'm not even remotely knowledgeable in those fields beyond that specific narrow focus. I can't set up an improvised HF relay station, or build a pontoon bridge, or fix my own car, or live for weeks in the Gobi, or be a successful bum in Calcutta, I might have Navigation (but I was an FDC Chief).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Unless that skill adequately substitutes for those other skills for most job uses. If you give grunts Electronics Operation, Engineer (Combat), Mechanic (Internal Combustion Engine), Survival (a couple of disparate climes),Urban Survival, Navigation(Land), and so on there's little reason to give them Soldier. There's also little realism, I can operate a few common radios better than most other grunts, dig a fighting hole, do maintenance on a HMMV or MRAP, survived to be rescued if separated from my unit in deserts, woodlands, and mountains, know a little about urban architecture as it relates to MOUT, and read a map and use a compass to basically navigate but I'm not even remotely knowledgeable in those fields beyond that specific narrow focus. I can't set up an improvised HF relay station, or build a pontoon bridge, or fix my own car, or live for weeks in the Gobi, or be a successful bum in Calcutta, I might have Navigation (but I was an FDC Chief).

For much of this, I think it's the difference between a skill level of 8-10 (dabbler to amateur) and 12+ (professional). Also, familitarities and Optional Specialities often have a place.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Unless that skill adequately substitutes for those other skills for most job uses. If you give grunts Electronics Operation, Engineer (Combat), Mechanic (Internal Combustion Engine), Survival (a couple of disparate climes),Urban Survival, Navigation(Land), and so on there's little reason to give them Soldier. There's also little realism, I can operate a few common radios better than most other grunts, dig a fighting hole, do maintenance on a HMMV or MRAP, survived to be rescued if separated from my unit in deserts, woodlands, and mountains, know a little about urban architecture as it relates to MOUT, and read a map and use a compass to basically navigate but I'm not even remotely knowledgeable in those fields beyond that specific narrow focus. I can't set up an improvised HF relay station, or build a pontoon bridge, or fix my own car, or live for weeks in the Gobi, or be a successful bum in Calcutta, I might have Navigation (but I was an FDC Chief).

Soldier should cover all of that, but it should be at least at 12- for doing it adequately vs the 10- for the guy who keeps asking how to do it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

For much of this, I think it's the difference between a skill level of 8-10 (dabbler to amateur) and 12+ (professional). Also, familitarities and Optional Specialities often have a place.

Then what's soldier for?

Besides I think it clearly goes deeper than Specialties, I can dig a pretty mean fighting hole, dry, with a grenade sump, water sump, a perfect parapet and nigh invisible too. I don't have slightest clue how to blow up a minefield or construct a pontoon bridge. My skill in "digging fighting holes" is probably 14 or so, whereas my skill in "every thing else a CE does" is probably 7 or less. There's no way to do that with Specialties.