Military roleplaying: line troops or special operations?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by johndallman

More precisely, "why play regular joes, rather than a unit that gets more variety?"

Some people like playing average and sub-average characters, I don't get it either, but there's 25 point GURPS campaigns, there's games like CoC where everyone goes insane, or WFRP where you have character classes like poverty stricken Ratcatchers.

I'll even go as far as saying that the type of people that like those low level games seem to take pride in mundanity, as if somehow suffering through a lame documentary was roleplaying gold.
But hey, whatever floats their boat, it takes all types.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

... WFRP where you have character classes like poverty stricken Ratcatchers. ...

I believe that the munchkin-crucial point with ratcatchers was that they got Immunity to Disease, which was otherwise rather hard to acquire in that system. They could always move on to more glamorous careers later.

(They also each got one small but fierce dog, which seemed to appeal to some people.)

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I'll even go as far as saying that the type of people that like those low level games seem to take pride in mundanity, as if somehow suffering through a lame documentary was roleplaying gold.

I wouldn't call the WFRP world (or the sort of stuff that CoC characters had to deal with) mundane. Deeply sordid at times, certainly, but if Monty Python and the Holy Grail and Baldrick can be popular - well, it's not like the players have to swim in the mud. And both those games give characters the chance to save the world from mind-ripping chaos on a semi-regular basis, at enough cost to make the victory feel authentically hard-won.

WWII line troops games would be slightly different, of course, but I suspect that the analogy there is less to documentary realism than to the grittier sort of war movie. Call it immersive social history if you like.

(The sort game that loses me for any idea as to its appeal is typified by SLA Industries. But the magic words there seem to be "black humour". It just doesn't strike me as funny enough.)

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

(The sort game that loses me for any idea as to its appeal is typified by SLA Industries. But the magic words there seem to be "black humour". It just doesn't strike me as funny enough.)

No, it's no black comedy. It's horror... of a type designed to actually be scary to players. There is humor to be found, but it's not inherent in the books; they are very seriously toned, very straight up. Mort is bureaucratic hell on top of cyberpunk corp squalor.

It's in the mode of, "And in the blackest of nights, even a candle is a beacon."

It's a dark, dim, oppressive Cyberpunk setting (with aliens and racial psionics/magic), where it's quite obvious the PC's are supposed to try to change the system from within... eventually... and in the meantime, revel in the ultraviolence and squalor.

It's even a playable engine. And it sets the mood right.

It often devolves into a black comedy in play...

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

It's a dark, dim, oppressive Cyberpunk setting (with aliens and racial psionics/magic), where it's quite obvious the PC's are supposed to try to change the system from within... eventually...

I had the impression that the system was far too well entrenched, at a downright metaphysical level, and enforced by far too many unbeatable NPCs, for the low-grade schlub PCs to have a chance of even thinking about changing it.

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

It often devolves into a black comedy in play...

I think that Oh So Seriously Horrific horror RPGs frequently do, in practise.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I had the impression that the system was far too well entrenched, at a downright metaphysical level, and enforced by far too many unbeatable NPCs, for the low-grade schlub PCs to have a chance of even thinking about changing it.

It's strongly implied in the rules of the Ebon psionics that there is hope for change. It's also quite explicit that PCs can rise high in the system... not so explicit is that it's enough to transfer to the bureaucratic side and effect change.

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I think that Oh So Seriously Horrific horror RPGs frequently do, in practise.

Hell, many non-horror and non-serious games evolve into black comedy. I had a Trek campaign turn that way...

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by johndallman

More precisely, "why play regular joes, rather than a unit that gets more variety?"

There are a lot of "regular joe" war movies. People may want to emulate them.

I would probably gravitate towards the regular joe campaign over the special ops campaign because I would suspect I'd get more character RP than in the special ops game.

A team of badass Delta Forces are probably going to end up doing a lot of badass killing of people and I would be concerned the people who'd want to play that group would be wanting more killing, less talking.

On the other hand, regular joe campaigns evoke the kid with the fiance back home, the short timer. I can see conversations at night about what'll you do when you see gay Paree. I can see the game emphasizing character interaction over furious combat...and that would appeal to me. Also the triumph (or fall) of the every man also appeals to me over the adventures of the superman.

Oh, and since the team won't be super badass, there will be variety in the campaign...but it'll have to be more than the variety of the kinds of combat missions you be doing. That also appeals to me.

I could also really see so many scenes from movies that would work well with regular people a bit in over their head that wouldn't work well with confident badasses.

And note, I wouldn't run this campaign with 25pts. I'd probably have the players spend 150...but want them to include civilian skills and interests. I'd want the high school football hero, the older Pastor, the combat artist, etc.

Heck, one of my favorite TV shows back in the day was China Beach, and I could totally see running a Viet Nam campaign where everybody is a REMF connected to a military hospital. That could be really fun. Or some sort of Seven Beauties scenario where the players were regular joes stuck behind enemy lines and cut off from their unit...hungry, wet, and lost.

Lots of great opportunities for stories with regular joes. Also opportunities for stories with 350pt Special Forces...but I'm not all that interested in those stories at the moment.

ETA: I'd also be down for running/playing in a uniformed cop show or any number of other shows where people are parts of a structure and can't just go hotdogging around.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by trooper6

There are a lot of "regular joe" war movies. People may want to emulate them.

Fair enough. The idea has considerable negative appeal for me.

I would probably gravitate towards the regular joe campaign over the special ops campaign because I would suspect I'd get more character RP than in the special ops game.

One thing I'd expect to get more of in the special ops campaign is influence over what happens. Special operators tend to get to do their own planning and tactics. You get a lot less of that as regular joes. Also, I'm not assuming that special operators are 350-point supermen, although looking back on the thread, people may have been assuming I was.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Fair enough. The idea has considerable negative appeal for me.

One thing I'd expect to get more of in the special ops campaign is influence over what happens. Special operators tend to get to do their own planning and tactics. You get a lot less of that as regular joes.

Some people dislike the idea of being part of a structure. They want complete freedom with few responsibilities or restrictions. I think one of the reasons why so many people like Dungeon Fantasy games where you are a "band of adventurers" set in "points of light" worlds that are medievalesque with Kings and Queens but no actual feudalism.

But there are other sorts of campaigns that appeal to other sorts of players. I would gladly play in a game medieval fantasy game with feudalism where I was in a PC party of knights who exists within a system of vassals and lieges. People who can't just do whatever.

Similarly, I was a regular joe in the Army and I enjoyed my experiences and could easily see running or playing in game with people who aren't loose cannons like I wasn't. And regular joes aren't completely without agency...it is just a different type of agency.

I'd imagine a PC group being a 4-5 person Team as part of a squad. One PC would be a Corporal in charge of that Team, and the other 3-4 PCs would be Privates of some sort.
It is always said that Officers come up with the plans and the NCOs implement them. So we have an NCO Corporal in this situation...the team will have some sorts of agency (plus plans never survive contact with the enemy). I'd probably be inspired by the Brothers in Arms video games.

Maybe the campaign would start in media res...Operation Market Garden. The PCs are in the 101st Airborne...and they have to take that bridge. But before they can...there is a sniper in a church belltower. Their squad is ordered to take out the sniper so the operation can continue. The first Team is going to move towards the front of the church, PC Team is told to move around the side. Then the PCs are on their own. They have a lot of choices and tactics and plans to make. And while they are moving the sniper is killing their squadmates. The fate of their mission is on them!

Then later they will be told to scout ahead and check out this village.
Or they are back at camp and one of their buddies has gone missing...if they can't find him before formation in the morning he'll be labelled a deserter! There is a lot you can do.

Actually, I wrote a Pyramid article on this very topic back in May 3rd 2002 entitled, "Just Like Any Other Job: How To Run A Military Campaign That Is More Than Just A Tactical Simulation" -- if you have the archive, the file name was 0321.1.html. Perhaps, that might give you ideas as to what to do with non-Special Ops folks. Though, again that may not be to your taste.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I'm playing in a G:WWII campaign, or rather a Weird War II campaign. I've looked around at other WWII and WWI games over the last year or so, and they, along with G:WWII seem to spend a fair amount of effort on a style of game which puzzles me.

This is the infantry squad, tank crew, or bomber crew made of PCs, one of thousands of such groups in the war. This doesn't seem very attractive as a subject for gaming to me. The party has little control over their own destiny, is at very large risk of getting wiped out if the campaign is realistic, and is likely to only see a single theatre of combat.

By contrast, being in some kind of special operations force allows more capable characters and access to better resources while remaining somewhat realistic. Special operations personnel get a lot more influence over what they do and how they go about it, and if they use that capability, can have a decent chance of survival through an extended campaign. They can also plausibly see a wider ranger of challenges.

Have your players create different sets of PCs. All PCs are connected to the pool. Each player earns Experience points, these are added to all of his Characters. Thus if each player has a 500 point Monsterhunting Special Forces Guy, a 350 point deep cover spy in Germany, a 350 point deep cover spy in France, and a 200 point frontline grunt, and anyone of these characters has earned 12 points, each of them gets twelve points. Mind you, if it's time to end a group of characters ("Sorry, but you shouldn't have stayed in Dresden THAT night.) the pool isn't lessened.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by johndallman

One thing I'd expect to get more of in the special ops campaign is influence over what happens. Special operators tend to get to do their own planning and tactics. You get a lot less of that as regular joes. Also, I'm not assuming that special operators are 350-point supermen, although looking back on the thread, people may have been assuming I was.

Side note: Even realistic Special Ops folks are really high powered. GURPS Seals in Viet Nam puts an "average" Seal at 275 points! So even if you aren't going cinematic "superhero"--you are getting really high powered supermen...that is what Special Ops are after all.