context needed to use (and thus train/better) certain default skills like Religios

[Plane]

spending bonus CP to improve skills generally requires that you used them or observed someone using them

That probably requires some kind of CONTEXT for using them... like for example you can't appreciably "use" your Pistol skill if you don't have a pistol on-hand to train with, right?

B193's Exorcism OTOH probably actually requires someone who is possessed to actually use the skill... so to "train" it under controlled situations might require a friendly spirit who is willing to cooperate with you to "spar" and allow you to train your exorcism?

This makes me wonder about the practical limits of self-study and book-learning. You could of course read books on how to perform exorcisms, or books on how to shoot pistols... but at some point if you're purely relying on books but not actually getting your hands dirty, it makes me wonder just how high you could actually train up those skills based on just theory / instruction and not "I'm actually fighting a spirit" or "I'm actually holding a gun".

on that note: does anyone know the crunch effect of "relative effectiveness depends on the originating culture of the spirit." ? Using it at defaults to Will/Thaumatology don't have specialization like the defaults to Ritual Magic or Religious Ritual or Theology... does using default from one of latter give some kind of bonus? or do you need a Blessed/TrueFaith/PowerInvestiture SPECIFIC to a spirit to avoid the -4 rather than any form of it avoiding penalty for all spirits?

Ritual Magic (B218) is one of those things that doesn't default to an attribute so you can't spontaneously use it... but it does default to Religious Ritual (B217)... that too lacks an attribute default ... but defaults to Theology (B225) which finally DOES have an IQ default.

Using things at default which require specialization gets me thinking though... you can only "use" the default skill (even though defaults aren't specialized .. or arguably you have a default in INFINITE specializations?) in a specialized way...

But to actually use it, you'd probably have to encounter the religion externally, right? Like "I need a gun to practise my shooting skill" practically, you would need a holy text, a holy building, a holy person, etc. to use/study a Theology specialization?

Theology (Comparative) would then seem like the easiest thing to practice since ANY use of it might count? Or should it only count in situations where you're trying to figure out connections between religions?

Comparative is limited to "religion routinely studied by scholars in your game world" when deciding what other specializations of theology default to it...

Which makes me wonder... rather than ALL specializations defaulting to IQ, would it be more realistic to just allow Theology (Comparative) to default to IQ?

This would give people an "in" to using religion (general comparative usage to well known religions in their world, basically related to Cultural Familiarity) but until they actually put a point in Comparative maybe they shouldn't be able to have "default skill" in Specialized Theology apart from Comparative?

Comparative seems like the best approximation of 'general knowledge' which would exclude alien religions...

and it seems strange like someone who is very good at this (still getting no default whatsoever in "not routinely studied by my world's scholars" stuff) would be on equal footing with someone who hasn't studied ANY kind of theology (pure IQ defaults).

I think the idea for me would be that you could use "studied theology" as a bridge to learn "unstudied theology" by using a gradual progression of defaulting relationships.

like say someone eventually wanted to learn about Aztec, they might go:
Comparative > Protestantism > Roman Catholicism > Aztec/Catholic Syncretism > Aztec

It seems strange after all that you would just inherently know about any religion whatsoever. Skill rolls usually represent some kind of knowledge about something, which you just wouldn't have of some alien religion you never heard of.

This would also add a realistic "extra step" to learning "Religious Ritual" and thus "Ritual Magic": a point in Comparative Theology, a point in Specialized Theology, a point in Specialized Religious Ritual, and a point in Specialized Ritual Magic.

Another idea for "default" use of Theology: could that just be used to make a new religion? Like since there's in theory infinite uses, could you "study" a religion of your own invention?

That would seem like what a deity or it's initial allotment of supernatural servants (angels, demonsetc) or worshippers/priests might need to do, because prior to actually forming a church/cult there would not actually be that arrangement of beliefs to be the basis of a skill.

Kind of like with B200 "Hobby Skill". At some point nobody had "Hobby Skill: Poker" because Poker did not exist until it was made. So how do you actually invent a new specialization of a skill and learn it?

Unlike traditional rules (you must use the skill) can you even use something which doesn't exist yet?

[Gumby Bush]

Okay, there is a whole mess of thoughts in here, let me try to bring some focus to it with my response.

In GURPS, it is hard for me to tell the distinction between Theology and Philosophy: RAW, both primarily offer action guidance, which is more applied ethics than what I think of as real-world theology or philosophy. It's hard to discriminate the two in reality, too, which doesn't help any (Is Aquinas's Summa Theologica a work of Christian Theology or Christian Philosophy? And what on earth is Augustine's Confessions?! It looks like a Literature/Writing invention combined with theology and philosophy...).

Depending on how Exorcism works, it might be possible to study it through meditative type practices, communing with G/god, or spiritual sparring; so what is necessary to raise it will vary by game world--and possibly by form of Exorcism (one could imagine "Religious Styles" akin to Martial Arts Styles, Magical Styles, and P3/54's Social Styles).

If you want to invent a new variety of Theology, I'd use invention rules: see PK's "First and Foremost" in P3/56 p.38, possibly with other Philosophy and or Theology skills as the invention skills (see, for instance, the ways Aristotelian and Platonist philosophy are taken up in medieval Christian and Muslim theology and philosophy). It is immensely harder than just tossing ideas into a bucket and shaking. I would absolutely leave rules for bugs in to get some of the weird artifacts of slip ups in reasoning... Putting examples in will be contentious, but the objection to Kant's ethics that it is too empty to actual provide action guidance is either a bug in his philosophy or a result of the failure he made on his Writing roll through haste (some of what I've seen suggested he wrote some of his works--Critique of Pure Reason, I think--so fast that it would have been impossible for him to edit it, so... a Writing roll at -10?).

On Theology defaults: if you want realism, I would say each character has defaults in only one or two varieties of Theology, usually not Comparative. I wish more people had at least a default in comparative theology, but the state of Christian Apologetics, at least, suggests we mostly do not. Rather, we have defaults in the theologies and philosophies in which we were raised. Maybe Theology (Christian), but more likely Theology (Roman Catholic) or Theology (Fundamentalist Christian)--which default to each other not well--at -5 or -6--Theology (Presbyterian) and Theology (Calvinistic Baptist), on the other hand, default at around -4, maybe better (-2, perhaps).

Keep in mind, too, that the granularity of specializations will vary by game, and you might see them as offering more depth for decreased breadth, rather than various optional specializations.

This might be a good area for hyper-specialization perks, too. E.g., Hyperspecialization (Karl Barth's doctrine of revelation).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

Depending on how Exorcism works, it might be possible to study it through meditative type practices, communing with G/god, or spiritual sparring; so what is necessary to raise it will vary by game world--and possibly by form of Exorcism (one could imagine "Religious Styles" akin to Martial Arts Styles, Magical Styles, and P3/54's Social Styles).

I'm just thinking like pure-theory learning (buying up pistol w/o ever handling gun. buying up pilot:car w/o ever handling a wheel, etc) should probably have some kind of cap to it.

If not a hard cap then maybe something like a penalty to rolls made to learning ("school as a job" in social engineering) like Unfamiliarity penalties if you have to try and learn when using unfamiliar tools: also apply that (or maybe something worse?) when trying to learn w/o any tools whatsoever?

B345 mentions -5 for "no equipment" (-10 if tech) but goes beyond saying some skills can't be used AT ALL without equipment.

Unfortunately I'm just not sure which skills that hard cap could apply to. Like for example can you train up your sword skill by just pretending you're holding a sword or reading manuals on swordsmanship? Can you train up exorcism by pretending you're exorcising a ghost or reading manuals on exorcism without ever encountering a possessed person?

Without that clarification I'm wondering maybe if we should just apply the -5, and maybe supernatural skills like exorcism ought to get a -10 like tech since it's really hard to get practical skills without practical experience with what you intend to learn to affect?

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

If you want to invent a new variety of Theology, I'd use invention rules: see PK's "First and Foremost" in P3/56 p.38, possibly with other Philosophy and or Theology skills as the invention skills (see, for instance, the ways Aristotelian and Platonist philosophy are taken up in medieval Christian and Muslim theology and philosophy)

It is immensely harder than just tossing ideas into a bucket and shaking. I would absolutely leave rules for bugs in to get some of the weird artifacts of slip ups in reasoning... Putting examples in will be contentious, but the objection to Kant's ethics that it is too empty to actual provide action guidance is either a bug in his philosophy or a result of the failure he made on his Writing roll through haste (some of what I've seen suggested he wrote some of his works--Critique of Pure Reason, I think--so fast that it would have been impossible for him to edit it, so... a Writing roll at -10?).

What sort of bonuses do you think would be involved in Invention Rolls for a new religion if there actually is a deity to worship and you can get them to intercede in providing miracles to attract worshippers so you need to put in less work to convince them?

Or that there are literal events / rules handed down to you from a deity and all you need to do is package them rather than come up with them?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Plane

What sort of bonuses do you think would be involved in Invention Rolls for a new religion if there actually is a deity to worship and you can get them to intercede in providing miracles to attract worshipers so you need to put in less work to convince them?

Or that there are literal events / rules handed down to you from a deity and all you need to do is package them rather than come up with them?

note that there is a big difference between inventing a new theology and building a new religion, and the two scenarios you mention are very different. providing miracles doesn't actually help guide doctrine, and a set of rules from heaven without the miracles doesn't really provide any followers.


Building a religion is building an organization. You need people who teach the religion and perform any ceremonies, and you need a way to teach those people what they're supposed to be doing, and you need a way to make it worth those people's while.

[Gumby Bush]

There is a case to be made that there is no such thing as "theory learning" exorcism... maybe raising the skill just represents increased reputation in the spirit world to scare them away, or maybe it is an exhibition of personal holiness or purity... If there are a set of techniques, then they might grow out of more mundane techniques for resisting temptation, in which case applying "prayer and fasting," to take the Biblical example, to a more mundane effort might allow one to raise Exorcism. GURPS Skills don't always have to be skills, remember.


A significant portion of Exodus is God and Moses making rolls against Administration.

Theology is primarily, if not exclusively, filled with propositional content.
Religious Ritual is how to perform the practices of religion required by Theology (e.g., most of Leviticus). Theology is what those practices are about. Public Speaking, Teaching, and Diplomacy--OK, and Intimidation--are the main routes to growing your base of followers... but Fast-Talk and even Sex Appeal could be used. You should be able to get massive bonuses to Diplomacy if worshiping your deity is actually in line with their interests, immense intimidation bonuses if, say, your deity is willing to kill off every first born male in any home without appropriate markings, etc.--particularly where such a miracle undermines the previously presumed powers, as some interpreters have taken the 12 plagues in Egypt to be a systematic attack on the claims to power of the Egyptian gods.

If you have an actual god, then you just let them inspire religious texts or what not, and you don't invent the religion at all, you learn it with a divine teacher. No invention required!

[whswhs]

If you have an actual god, the fundamental advantage they give you is typically Charisma 3-5.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

There is a case to be made that there is no such thing as "theory learning" exorcism...
maybe raising the skill just represents increased reputation in the spirit world to scare them away, or maybe it is an exhibition of personal holiness or purity...

..

GURPS Skills don't always have to be skills, remember.

Skills are teachable and I'm not sure you can teach reputation. I'd probably use actual Reputation as reputation.

Guys like Constantine seem like an argument against the holiness/purity aspect: I think those just help in avoiding the penalty for lacking one, but you could use skill to compensate for that penalty.

[Hide]

Just my two cents; I used to help an exorcist. This person had a special religious rank. To go exorcising, you need a special investiture. And well, Holy Rites are contained in Special Books.

In GURPS terms it is very straight forward: Religious rank and power investiture; and then Rithual Path Magic with a "grimorie".

He used to tell me that the training for an exorcism is similar to Rocky's training before the big fight; the preparation is Spiritual, I do not recall such thing as "sparring with other Spirits", but while the exorcist prepares he may find challenges before achieving the requried state to perform the exorcism.

In GURPS terms, you could say the training covers the preparation for the "ritual", and the buiding of "FP" pool.

Finally, he also told me that the movie "the exorcist" (the original) covers many real elements of actual exorcisms.

On a side note, exorcists also have preparation to tell between real possessions and mental problems.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm just thinking like pure-theory learning (buying up pistol w/o ever handling gun. buying up pilot:car w/o ever handling a wheel, etc) should probably have some kind of cap to it.

For that kind of thing I would at the least give a familiarity penalty. Real martial artists practice with practice weapons before moving on to the real thing to reduce risk of injury so the basic forms and training do have some benefit.
I learned to drive a car by classroom instruction and observing other drivers long before I got behind the wheel. There is no question that helped me but I was still unfamiliar with the specific car (much less switching between a car, pickup, van, stick, and automatic as I did)

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you have an actual god, the fundamental advantage they give you is typically Charisma 3-5.

And if you don't have that people tend to drift away, go astray, and so forth. The constant miracles of exodus are surprisingly ineffective at producing devout followers, and I don't think that's the only story featuring that sort of thing.