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Old 05-21-2019, 10:11 AM   #41
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

In Enhanced Senses, I suggested that critical success on a Stealth roll meant 10 dB of noise (quiet breathing, audible at 1"); success meant 40 dB (leaves rustling, audible at 9"); failure meant 60 dB (conversation, audible at 1 yard); and critical failure meant 90 dB (as loud as a shout, audible at 8 yards). You could plug this into the general Hearing rules and assign penalties based on range. For a failed Stealth roll, for example, you would have an unmodified Hearing roll if you were 1 yard away.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:13 AM   #42
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
To quote the book's definition of Stealth...



That feels like the misleading part to me. If you want to run the game by RAW and accept the implication that you don't bother rolling for people who aren't specifically on the alert for intruders... it's up to you.
It's not misleading. It's intentional, because otherwise not only will ti be impossible for Ninja-San to sneak past a company of soldiers, but the GM is going to have to calculate the modifiers and roll 80-250 times. The rule as written is designed to make stealth something more than totally useless when dealing with a situation where you have large numbers of hostiles.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:25 AM   #43
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
It's not misleading. It's intentional, because otherwise not only will ti be impossible for Ninja-San to sneak past a company of soldiers, but the GM is going to have to calculate the modifiers and roll 80-250 times. The rule as written is designed to make stealth something more than totally useless when dealing with a situation where you have large numbers of hostiles.
Exactly. If you succeed, you move silently and nobody hears you, unless they're specifically on alert, then they get a perception roll. To me, specifically on alert means they're watching for you, expecting you, maybe a camp where they're expecting an invasion. Even then, if they beat you with the contest, or if you failed your roll, I wouldn't have them bust you straight up. I'd have them do the "Huh? What was that?" and come to investigate the noise or the shadow they think they might have seen. Then I'd do another contest to see if they find you or not, probably with modifiers as they're much more focused in and are likely closer to you than before.

If they're just guards at their post, I'd maybe give them a perception roll at a minus. I've done security work, and 99% of the time nothing happens. You let your guard down. Unless the stealther screws up and makes noise, the guard isn't going to stand from his chair.

But, as mentioned above, it would be impossible to sneak past a group if they all get perception rolls against you. So I believe it's meant as you roll and succeed and you were quiet enough to not be detected. If you want to make it harder, give a minus. I'd rather be rolling on a minus against my own skill than have the GM roll a hundred times to see if ONE of them beats me.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:39 AM   #44
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

A lot of things that I've seen people point out as "problems" through the years go away if you stop thinking of GURPS as a simulation engine and start thinking of it as a game. I know that I've been guilty of this in the past, but today my response to the rules saying "Here's a way to use this skill to adjudicate an adventuring task" is to grab dice and roll, not to wonder about what that interpretation means for the game world writ large or to figure out how I would handle a dozen edge cases before using the rules-as-written for the straightforward case.

I'm also comfortable with letting skills and die rolls be PC-centric. PC wants to move stealthily? Roll vs. Stealth. PC has a chance to spot a stealthy intruder? Roll versus per. Neither one needs to be an opposed roll -- one could easily use the BAD mechanic from Action and avoid any contests (which takes care of the weirdness from the OP, by the way).

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that as a thought experiment. Nor am I saying that if your group enjoys getting down into the details of exactly how loud a sneaking person is in dB and then figuring out how that affects a hearing Per check, that that is hurting wrong fun - far from it. However, if trying to nail this stuff down keeps you from actually playing or enjoying the game, you might try letting a little "roll and shout" into your life.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:50 AM   #45
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
It's not misleading. It's intentional, because otherwise not only will ti be impossible for Ninja-San to sneak past a company of soldiers, but the GM is going to have to calculate the modifiers and roll 80-250 times. The rule as written is designed to make stealth something more than totally useless when dealing with a situation where you have large numbers of hostiles.
That is an excellent point. But I'm not likely to roll for everyone in the camp. Just people who have line of sight or even the potential of hearing. People trying to start a campfire on the edge of camp are distracted, the stealth penalty applies, distance applies, any visual modifiers apply... and I'll still roll that guy to see if he notices. But the 200 people further into the camp, or the guard who is on alert but on the other side of the camp don't get rolls.

Then if Ninja-San sneaks into the camp... it's still only the people who have line of sight or are near enough to hear. It'll be more perception rolls, but still only one stealth roll the way I do it (single stealth roll providing the penalty).

I just don't like the distinction that you have to specifically be looking for the person hiding to get a perception roll. If Ninja-San is hiding behind a tent flap, and a couple soldiers walk by while chatting... I'm going to roll their perception rolls because they might notice the booted toe sticking out from behind the flap.

If you stick with no one getting to make a perception roll unless they're specifically looking, then Ninja-San suddenly has nothing to worry about once he's past guards on a perimeter. It feels wrong.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:38 AM   #46
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
In Enhanced Senses, I suggested that critical success on a Stealth roll meant 10 dB of noise (quiet breathing, audible at 1"); success meant 40 dB (leaves rustling, audible at 9"); failure meant 60 dB (conversation, audible at 1 yard); and critical failure meant 90 dB (as loud as a shout, audible at 8 yards). You could plug this into the general Hearing rules and assign penalties based on range. For a failed Stealth roll, for example, you would have an unmodified Hearing roll if you were 1 yard away.
That seems very harsh for failures and critical failues. It is not unusal for people to move with less noise than a conversation even when not trying to be stealthy, and I have never even seen someone fail badly enough at stealth to be as loud as a shout (not even very plausible unless you are carrying or walking around something which can easily make a lot of noise).
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:32 PM   #47
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

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That seems very harsh for failures and critical failues. It is not unusal for people to move with less noise than a conversation even when not trying to be stealthy, and I have never even seen someone fail badly enough at stealth to be as loud as a shout (not even very plausible unless you are carrying or walking around something which can easily make a lot of noise).
You might never have seen a critical failure, either. They're meant to be rare, after all, and they're rather more rare in the real world than in most games.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:35 PM   #48
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

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You might never have seen a critical failure, either. They're meant to be rare, after all, and they're rather more rare in the real world than in most games.
If movies have taught me anything, its that a critical failure with stealth involves stepping on a stick, which makes a sound roughly equivalent to a gunshot or car backfire.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:08 PM   #49
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You might never have seen a critical failure, either. They're meant to be rare, after all, and they're rather more rare in the real world than in most games.
They aren't extremely uncommon in GURPS. Unless your effective skill is very high, they happen one in 72 times (and otherwise one third as likely as that), so it makes sense for them to represent misstakes that could plausibly happen with such frequency rather than extreme outliers.

Unless it is a comedic game, the adventure heroes being clumsy clowns does not tend to be appropriate (and there is a disadvantage for that for the occasions where that is the case).
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: Problem with Stealth?

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That seems very harsh for failures and critical failues. It is not unusal for people to move with less noise than a conversation even when not trying to be stealthy, and I have never even seen someone fail badly enough at stealth to be as loud as a shout (not even very plausible unless you are carrying or walking around something which can easily make a lot of noise).
You've never knocked over something loud while walking through your house at night to the bathroom?

Never stubbed your toe and yelled an obscenity?

Never accidentally kicked a glass bottle in an alleyway and it rattles, clatters and crashes?
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