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Old 01-10-2018, 12:13 AM   #21
ak_aramis
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
One of the challenges with using SCA heavy weapons fighting as a guide to armed combat is that the scoring system means your armor doesn't 'work' - i.e., a sharp rap that stops on an armored location scores a point, despite the fact that it would not effect you. And blows that would harm an armored opponent without finding a gap in protection - like full-rotation hits with a heavy pole arm, or a grappling throw - are disallowed. This isn't a criticism of the sport; all combat sports have protective rules and/or gear (usually both) that shape how you win and therefore how you approach the activity. But it does mean that SCA heavy weapon fighting is not very much like late medieval armored combat. Nor is it very much like unarmored combat, because of the restrictions in movement. It is like SCA heavy weapons combat. Which is cool, but its own thing.
The calling standard is a blow which would injure through chain. I know that the Oerthan Knights did destructive testing several times on chain on pigs (said pigs previously slaughtered for food that morning, and roast after testing); the calling standard dropped somewhat after those.In both cases, the chain does NOT stop swordblows well at all. It turns them into 1/2" to 1" wide smashes, while the rattan is 1.5" to 2" wide over gambeson alone, and up to 4" wide on chain alone... with similar mass, heft, and biomechanics. At least two of them have since gone on to become King of An Tir...

Likewise, Oerthan fencers put 4oz leather over a fat-backed steak and used it with non-rebated blades to calibrate feel. The force needed is surprisingly low... not even enough to flex the blade of a hanwei live steel blade (and it flexes more than their practical blade).
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:37 AM   #22
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

I understand that rationale; I have done years of SCA heavy weapons combat, and have also done years of HEMA, including cutting with sharps. So, I'm aware of the things various groups argue about the connections between their sports and real combat. But the bit about calling shots in SCA heavy weapon combat is simply not accurate. There isn't a chance in the world that most of the blows called in that sport would penetrate period mail over a gambeson, much less the kettle helms that go over your coconut.
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

Consider reducing UC 1 and 2 to IQ 8 talents. Or add IQ 8 Fisticuff or Brawling talent(s) that would allow a figure to do 1 or 2 extra points of damage with their bare hands.

Consider establishing minimum ST levels for armor and shields. Suggestion - No ST minimum for cloth and small shields. ST 9 for leather, ST 11 for chainmail and large shield, ST 13 for half plate and tower shield, ST 14 for plate and fine plate.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-10-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:27 PM   #24
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

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But one thing about Armored combat - shields are damned effective against blades. But blades can bypass the shield.

I'd suggest +1D difficulty to bypass the shield's damage resistance.

A parrying talent allowing a roll to block would be a good addition, provided it's not too
For what it's worth, training with period viking equipment, one of the interesting things about the period equipment is that a poorly aimed blow from a sword that hits the shield edge (the shields are maybe 9mm thick at the boss including a hide facing, and perhaps 4-5mm at the edge, only 2.5mm of that is wood!) will embed and stick. Firmly.

it's very specific to the period and the equipment, but there's been a lot of interesting work in the HEMA space - check out Dimicator's site for sword-and-buckler, and some other styles and periods.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

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In the Real World, didn’t “light” combat systems evolve because gunpowder ultimately reduced heavy armor?
While some of this happened, the vikings were a swing in the heavy-light-heavy trend in infantry. They wore very little armor, it seems. Of course, we're very very limited in the physical archeology for those guys.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:39 PM   #26
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

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The energy on target is comparable to a 7.62N round... much slower, but way more mass. 3000+ grains at 200+ fps, and (unlike the firearms of the day) able to fire a case hardened AP bolt with good accuracy.
For what it's worth, and a bit of a tangent, the 740-lb draw crossbow I modeled for my GURPS article The Deadly Spring only delivered 40J through a 14" AP ash projectile. The draw stroke (7.5") and heavy limbs made it pretty inefficient. This was about a 9-lb weapon.

Siege crossbows with many thousands of pounds of draw weight were a differnt story; not sure how portable these were.
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:21 AM   #27
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

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I understand that rationale; I have done years of SCA heavy weapons combat, and have also done years of HEMA, including cutting with sharps. So, I'm aware of the things various groups argue about the connections between their sports and real combat. But the bit about calling shots in SCA heavy weapon combat is simply not accurate. There isn't a chance in the world that most of the blows called in that sport would penetrate period mail over a gambeson, much less the kettle helms that go over your coconut.
You're forgetting the single most important element of weapons: The weapon does not need to meet the flesh, merely to put its energy into flesh efficiently.

A saxon-style handaxe to chain & gambeson put the pig's right rib into its left, without even breaking skin. There were pieces of bone through all the organ meats.

The broadsword to the shoulder shattered the clavicle through chain and gambeson.

And, because people often claim that the time betwen death and test is often resulting in brittleness - the pig was still walking at 0700, testing was done at 1000, put into the cooking pit at 1015, and was feast at 1600.

Not one hit made significant damage to the armor - but every blow broke bones and disrupted tissue. Made the ribs hard to eat, too.
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:29 AM   #28
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

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While some of this happened, the vikings were a swing in the heavy-light-heavy trend in infantry. They wore very little armor, it seems. Of course, we're very very limited in the physical archeology for those guys.
Most period illustrations of battle show what appears to be chain for the leaders, and ring on leather* for the less affluent, with shields and conical helms, usually with nasals and an aventail of chain or leather.

The archaeology sometimes shows the holes for the aventail. The tales tell of armor being passed from father to son or grandson. Bracers are almost always shown, usually over the shirtsleeve.

* literally, brass or copper rings sewn onto heavy leather. It's actually better than chain at spreading the energy density. Add some whale-baleen underneath, and wear it over a wollen shirt... it'll make a steel rebate at full speed merely painful. I know from personal experience.
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Old 01-16-2018, 02:44 PM   #29
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

I have to say that I don't agree with eliminating the increasing dice penalty for certain things. I believe that the increasing dice penalty and the attribute penalties for success in various things are actually both useful mechanisms for the GM to use, as well as clearly addressing differing levels of difficulty. So keep that.

For the rest of Ty's list, I mostly agree, though I question the WAY he wants to implement some of them...

At the very least, they are all questions that should be looked at, even if the consensus at the end of such examination is that it's just fine the way it is. (Ignoring the obviously tongue-in-cheek ones, anyway.)
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Old 01-16-2018, 02:47 PM   #30
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I do not think that revised TFT needs any stat mods at all for the genders - we got along just fine without it back in the day.

(I just now located a literally moldy treasure trove - the ancient box of 70s-era TFT drafts. But I will have to take it outside, when we have a nice day, to open it, because the flood of a few years ago did it no good at all. It's dry now but, yes, there is mold. And pages are stuck together. But I don't know what I might find there. I think that much of it will be discardable, but having saved it against this day for so many years, I'll certainly give those old typed manuscripts a hard look before I ditch anything. Wouldn't it be nice to find, for instance, an unused Death Test encounter?)
Man, I can only hope that we will one day get a chance to look at those gems in PDF or something! ;-)

But I'm amazingly glad you found them; it should help save at least some work on the new edition!
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