Would like some help with our group

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Could do, But I think i'd either have it be the side effects of lots of FP loss,

Or if I was doing this as a series of rolls for one lift I'd also use the "hitting the wall" rules. This way if you are make the hitting the wall roll for every loss of FP and you were doing something where you were burning through your FP quickly even though HT+5 + training bonus means the first few you'll be fine dig really deep into your FPs and build that HT penalty and you increases the chances of losing HP.

Completely glanced over the Hitting the Wall paragraph. I can definitely see that.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

This raises a point that someone made about this subject in a past thread. Some lifting equipment's benefit might be better modeled by effecting these rolls or mitigating the effect of critical failures, rather than straight bonuses to lifting.

I personally agree with this. Taping your hands, using a mouth guard and wearing gloves while boxing doesn't make you a better fighter, it helps keep you from loosing teeth or breaking your hand/wrist. (Not lifting equipment I know)

The powder and straps could keep the critical failure from being you just dropped 1/3 of a ton on your feet instead of increasing the amount you could lift. Can't say personally as the only thing I regularly lift are my game books, ore a cold one after a toast. lol

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Well because I'm a bit of a "stat normaliser" ;-), I tend to model extreme human ability by working up through advantages that start at the broad in effect, and increasingly narrow in effect, to me that's a better way of demonstrating specialist/extreme ability without a lot of knock on effects of also being as great in other aspects of GURPS stats that are broad in scope.

This very personal taste, POV, game and genre driven though!

I do understand and I think it's a great way to build certain characters...for the right GM and game. I've had a couple of my sample character builds (now possible NPC's as m GM kept them.......uh oh, lol) criticized and I was questioned at to the Why I built them that way.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

Completely glanced over the Hitting the Wall paragraph. I can definitely see that.


I personally agree with this. Taping your hands, using a mouth guard and wearing gloves while boxing doesn't make you a better fighter, it helps keep you from loosing teeth or breaking your hand/wrist. (Not lifting equipment I know)

The powder and straps could keep the critical failure from being you just dropped 1/3 of a ton on your feet instead of increasing the amount you could lift. Can't say personally as the only thing I regularly lift are my game books, ore a cold one after a toast. lol

Yep. While I haven't done weights seriously for years (although my boy has got into it and it can be hard to resist showing off a bit ;-0) I agree.
That said you can argue it both ways in some situations. Having safety equipment that protects you from injury can allow you to push yourself harder up to and past limits that might otherwise increase the chances of injury. To keep with boxing example If I have wraps and a glove on I can worry less about the repercussion of hitting as hard as I can, than I might otherwise do. So I don't know maybe another benefit might be giving bonus to a Will based EE roll rather then ST ior Skill in general?

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

I do understand and I think it's a great way to build certain characters...for the right GM and game. I've had a couple of my sample character builds (now possible NPC's as m GM kept them.......uh oh, lol) criticized and I was questioned at to the Why I built them that way.

Ah well I'm the GM so I don't have that issue. Although yes I have also used my players devious minds against them like that ;-)!

[Kesendeja]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ah well I'm the GM so I don't have that issue. Although yes I have also used my players devious minds against them like that ;-)!

I believe the proper term here is MwaHaHaHa

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Yep. While I haven't lifted seriously for years (although my boy has got into it and it can be hard to resist showing off a bit ;-0) I agree.

Would definitely be worth the look on his face though. lol

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

That said you can argue it both ways in some situations. Having safety equipment that protects you form inury can allow you to push yourself harder up to and past limits that might otherwise increase the chances of injury. To keep with boxing example If I have wraps and a glove on I can worry less about the repercussion of hitting as hard as I can, than I might otherwise do. So I don't know maybe another benefit might be giving bonus to a Will based EE roll rather then ST ior Skill in general?

This I think would be a better representation. Basic skill rolls are exactly that, basic. Not full throttle, but cruising. EE, to me, represents the "balls to the wall", "full tilt", as hard as you can aspect. Knowing you can do so more safely would make it easier to do, not necessarily get better results than you could in a situation where safety is not a concern (life threatened, etc.)

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ah well I'm the GM so I don't have that issue. Although yes I have also used my players devious minds against them like that ;-)!

Evil man, evil....I knew there was a reason I liked you. :-P

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Kesendeja

I believe the proper term here is MwaHaHaHa

Heh, yep! .

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

Would definitely be worth the look on his face though. lol

yeah his fat dad can still move weights around OK, well so long as he doesn't throw his back out (to go back to the safety equipment point!) let's just say i've likely dropped a point of HT in the last 20 years.

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

This I think would be a better representation. Basic skill rolls are exactly that, basic. Not full throttle, but cruising. EE, to me, represents the "balls to the wall", "full tilt", as hard as you can aspect. Knowing you can do so more safely would make it easier to do, not necessarily get better results than you could in a situation where safety is not a concern (life threatened, etc.)

Well no reason why you couldn't do both suggestions.

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

Evil man, evil....I knew there was a reason I liked you. :-P

Cheers

TD

[Tomsdad]

One thing I noticed from the original set up stat is capped at 14 and skill at 16 (unless a good argument for higher skill is made).

I can't help but think your GM is going to end up with a stat heavy* game as by those build suggestions you're going to be starting with effective skill +2, which for the kind of characters and game cited seems low?

I think you have a situation were the PC's will running more on stats than skills, so will suffer when anything more than basic level movie competency is required.


If they were all young so great potential but low on training and experience than I could see it, but I get the impression that these people have been going for while?


For instance while it's been very long time since I've seen best of the best (Chris Penn, round house?) but I think your boy genius martial artist with MA skills @ 14 is kind of low for that film?



Perhaps more importantly I think these PC's will get into trouble when the bullets start flying unless they're fighting mook level opposition and/or the GM is heavy on positive situational mods and light on negative ones.

Is the GM OK with talents?

(but personally I'd up the skill limit to 18 - 20)


*That's a comment on relative level of stat to skill, not on the stat levels in abstract

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

One thing I noticed from the original set up stat is capped at 14 and skill at 16 (unless a good argument for higher skill is made).

I can't help but think your GM is going to end up with a stat heavy* game as by those build suggestions you're going to be starting with effective skill +2, which for the kind of characters and game cited seems low?

I think you have a situation were the PC's will running more on stats than skills, so will suffer when anything more than basic level movie competency is required.


If they were all young so great potential but low on training and experience than I could see it, but I get the impression that these people have been going for while?


For instance while it's been very long time since I've seen best of the best (Chris Penn, round house?) but I think your boy genius martial artist with MA skills @ 14 is kind of low for that film?



Perhaps more importantly I think these PC's will get into trouble when the bullets start flying unless they're fighting mook level opposition and/or the GM is heavy on positive situational mods and light on negative ones.

Is the GM OK with talents?

(but personally I'd up the skill limit to 18 - 20)


*That's a comment on relative level of stat to skill, not on the stat levels in abstract

Yeah, this was one of the major discussions at the design table (we tend to sit down and discuss what everyone wants, character ideas, parameters etc.). It eventually came about that for the first several adventures were all mostly mundane, it would eventually get to the point the supernatural aspect of things would come out, but not for a good while.

Now that being said, most of the world will be stated using 10-11 for attributes being the norm, occasionally seeing up to a 13 in uncommon cases and peak level rarely being encountered until things start getting into a different level (the supernatural element shoves it's head in). Most professionals would be a ATT+2 so around 12-13 in key skills, experts at +3 to +4 an most people going about their lives at default or at best 1 point in a skill. Especially considering that the skill levels as described are for "adventure default" not "day to day default". I posted several posts back the skill levels we were adopting and in my initial post a hyperlink to the thread we are gathering the "normal people" number from.

HERE, in case you are interested

So seeing this, our characters are a bit OP (attribute wise) for the "normal" world (all 3 of us have at least one 14 in a stat), but that's what our GM is looking for and she also wanted us to diversify our characters (hence the 16 cap on skills). The characters are the "top in class" and all that. So, that's where all that come from. Also, the main reason I posted the links and all so to let people know the basis/default for our world. Which is where we are all thinking the stories as is seemed OK, but enough doubt crept in to my head I wanted outside eyes.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

Yeah, this was one of the major discussions at the design table (we tend to sit down and discuss what everyone wants, character ideas, parameters etc.). It eventually came about that for the first several adventures were all mostly mundane, it would eventually get to the point the supernatural aspect of things would come out, but not for a good while.

Now that being said, most of the world will be stated using 10-11 for attributes being the norm, occasionally seeing up to a 13 in uncommon cases and peak level rarely being encountered until things start getting into a different level (the supernatural element shoves it's head in). Most professionals would be a ATT+2 so around 12-13 in key skills, experts at +3 to +4 an most people going about their lives at default or at best 1 point in a skill. Especially considering that the skill levels as described are for "adventure default" not "day to day default". I posted several posts back the skill levels we were adopting and in my initial post a hyperlink to the thread we are gathering the "normal people" number from.

HERE, in case you are interested

So seeing this, our characters are a bit OP (attribute wise) for the "normal" world (all 3 of us have at least one 14 in a stat), but that's what our GM is looking for and she also wanted us to diversify our characters (hence the 16 cap on skills). The characters are the "top in class" and all that. So, that's where all that come from. Also, the main reason I posted the links and all so to let people know the basis/default for our world. Which is where we are all thinking the stories as is seemed OK, but enough doubt crept in to my head I wanted outside eyes.

Ah OK cool, I see, so it's actually starting off somewhat low level. I like the idea of high stats, low skills here, as it means you will have a good platform to build off to ramp up ability and to build in different directions when it gets a bit heavier.

(also that bit in bold is a great approach IMO!)

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ah OK cool, I see, so it's actually starting off somewhat low level. I like the idea of high stats, low skills here, as it means you will have a good platform to build off to ramp up ability and to build in different directions when it gets a bit heavier.

Yeah, that was the general idea. Keeps the characters as heroic while still having them somewhat associating with the mundane still.

So, with those parameters in mind, any additional thoughts?

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

(also that bit in bold is a great approach IMO!)

Thanks. It's been our default way of doing things for decades no matter the game system. Works very well for us.