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Old 02-22-2018, 11:15 AM   #21
Gollum
 
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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
See, that's the the thing though. I really don't think the average MoS would be 4 though. True, there would be bonuses for equipment and the like and taking time possible and EE, but I personally think the stress of being in a competition environment, the attempt at a world record, and the attempts of others trying to erode your confidence would overshadow the bonuses gained.
With an effective skill of 14, without the least bonus, and an average 3d6 result of 10, the average margin of success is 4.

To be more precise, it is not exactly 4, because the average 3d6 result varies between 10 and 11 and, so, the exact average margin of success would vary between 3 and 4.

But I think that Tomsdad noted something important about your character. It is a bit strange that a strongman competitor only has Attribute+0 to his skill. Unless he didn't trained anymore for a very long time, of course, in which case it would perfectly make sense: skills, especially competitive one, do decrease rapidly without daily training.
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:18 AM   #22
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As for your humble opinion, that's exactly what we are looking for. I've read several posts on ST/Lifting before posting this and have seem many posts (from you and several others) that make very valid points. There are several posters that I have grown to respect their opinion, even if I don't agree with all of them.
And that is what I love here! People always post very good arguments which make think a lot, even when we don't agree with them. It is an amazing forum to learn about GURPS, and about a lot of other topics!
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:30 AM   #23
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OK for the various different lifts I agree with what was posted earlier most of them won't match up to the various BLx2 or BLx8 'lifts', so I think a better tactic is to give them their own multipliers and if you really want to get into modelling the nitty gritty of a Strong man competition have them as specialties of the lifting skill, possibly also with equipment bonuses (or even penalties for sets up that are designed to be harder e.g overly thick bars that interfere with grips)

EDIT: I see mlangsdorf has already look at how these lifts and events fit in with current GURPS lifts and throws!





Actually that's not a massive deadlift (in strongman terms) certainly within the realms of possibility for an olympic lifter I'd have thought even if deadlift isn't an Olympic lift.

the current world record deadlift is 1,100lbs
Yup, Eddie Hall. You get to see that lift in the Born Strong documentary. All I can say is....damn.
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-----

On calculating lift's I maybe wrong, but I think something's been missed?

The original listing is a bit odd:



Lifting is a HT average skill, so if this chap has HT14 and lifting 14 then he's either got a +0 skill level in lifting, or there's a typo?

If it's the former than he's strong and fit but most certainly not an experienced lifter in terms of this level of competition having only spent 2cp on the skill, so despite having an excellent stat build for it no won't likely be doing as well as a dedicated lifter could or likely at the standard those event lifts are set at?.


Is it possible that it's meant to be HT14 +4 lifting effective skill = 18, (and so Will 11+4 = 15 for using extra effort)?

If that's so and combined with KYOS giving him a base BL of 50lbs

If he rolls an 11 on an ordinary lift test he'll get 7 MoS (+35%) so BL = 67.50lb

If he rolls an 11 on an EE Will based lift test he can take a -4 penalty and get +40% so BL = 70lbs

and if he rolled an 11 on an EE Will based lift test back when his will was 14 he could take a -7 penality and get +70% so BL = 85lbs


(I see he used to be an ex-competitor, are you saying his lifting skill has gone back to +0?)
Lifting, and Will went from 16 (HT+2) and 14 respectively to 14 and 11. This was purely background, He was just getting into the competitive aspect of things, heavily supported by his wife (dependent disad). After her death he put away the weights and lost a bit of his drive. Just background reason to not have them as high right now (ran out of CP, lol).

Part of the reason we were looking into this is the GM was thinking on doing one off sessions for our characters that revolved around the pivot point event that caused then to join the Bureau. She is also doing a session 0 at the end of the academy to set the general feel for the game (an giving everyone the template). The actual session 1 will be about 3 and a half years later, after they have had time to establish themselves before the proverbial kaka hit the air distribution system.

PC 1 will probably be during/after a competition, some rolls there and seeing how he did sets frame of mind and all, and the loss of his wife shortly there after.

PC 2 will possibly be at a tournament and his trigger

and PC 3...don't know. That player hasn't talked too much about the characters trigger.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:27 PM   #24
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My career path must be really weird, because of the last 5-6 project managers I've worked with, I think only two of them had written programs for pay at any point in their careers, and none of them recently.

When I lost my corporate job to downsizing, back in 2002, they put me through a job search training program, in which I learned about the eight career anchors. One of them was managerial competence, which meant that you valued being a boss and wanted to do an effective job at it. Another was technical competence, which meant that you valued doing a skilled task involving things or ideas. For the latter orientation, managing people was tedious drudgery that you had to put up with to get certain real jobs done.

On one hand, the fact that most organizations are managed by the former type means that the reward and promotion structure for the latter type consistently seeks to motivate them by promising to let them manage people. On the other hand, there apparently is a process by which technical competence types do end up as managers at some level.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:01 AM   #25
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Yup, Eddie Hall. You get to see that lift in the Born Strong documentary. All I can say is....damn.

yep

Lifting, and Will went from 16 (HT+2) and 14 respectively to 14 and 11. This was purely background, He was just getting into the competitive aspect of things, heavily supported by his wife (dependent disad). After her death he put away the weights and lost a bit of his drive. Just background reason to not have them as high right now (ran out of CP, lol).
...
Ah OK yep got you (good background)

OK so that makes more sense. he had the raw stats to potentially excel at this competition, but not the training to truly shine at the top level. Even when it was effective skill 16 at +2 that's not (IMO) a huge world championship final skill, but ST/HT/Will 14 would allow you to muscle it (ahem sorry) to maybe get to that level of competition.


As an aside I was thinking about how you could actually do this kind of competition in GURPS, if the competition was what the game was concentrating on. For me one big problem is GURPS lifting is very either/or, in that you either lifting with ST or ST with Skill as often as you like, or using EE burning an FP each time. Which is fine for general lifting stuff while adventuring.

I'd probably use the AP system in some way to model doing lifts, runs & throws in a time event and head to head. You could also link the amount of penalty you take on an EE lift to how many AP you spend instead of it being a straight 1FP cost.

You watch these compensations and I think short and long term fatigue plays a big role.

Sorry not directly relevant to your game, just got thinking about it as this is a subject that comes up every so often here either directly or tangentially!
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:18 AM   #26
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Ah OK yep got you (good background)

OK so that makes more sense. he had the raw stats to potentially excel at this competition, but not the training to truly shine at the top level. Even when it was effective skill 16 at +2 that's not (IMO) a huge world championship final skill, but ST/HT/Will 14 would allow you to muscle it (ahem sorry) to maybe get to that level of competition.
Thank you.

And that all we were thinking. Not a top competitor (yet), but definitely one to look out for in the coming years (had tragedy not struck).

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As an aside I was thinking about how you could actually do this kind of competition in GURPS, if the competition was what the game was concentrating on. For me one big problem is GURPS lifting is very either/or, in that you either lifting with ST or ST with Skill as often as you like, or using EE burning an FP each time. Which is fine for general lifting stuff while adventuring.

I'd probably use the AP system in some way to model doing lifts, runs & throws in a time event and head to head. You could also link the amount of penalty you take on an EE lift to how many AP you spend instead of it being a straight 1FP cost.

You watch these compensations and I think short and long term fatigue plays a big role.

Sorry not directly relevant to your game, just got thinking about it as this is a subject that comes up every so often here either directly or tangentially!
From what our group has read of Action (where the AP system is, IIRC) we are not real fans of it (the AP system, not Action). There are many thing in Action we do like, but that is not one. Would AP model what happens to Eddie Hall during his breaking of the world record with his 500 kg lift. This video doesn't have the angle, but in the Born Strong documentary you can clearly see blood pouring from his nose during the lift from the angle they filmed.

AFAIK, there is no real way to model that in GURPS, the success but...uh-oh!/failure with silver lining concept. I know other game systems have it: Shadowrun the Glitch, FFG Star Wars/Genesis does as well among others. This could model something like this well (at least in that respect)

Perhaps a variable fatigue option?

Take this lift. If just using FP and assuming he has about 16, that whole lift would have to put him the below 0 to represent that. Assuming the initial lift cost him about 8 FP and would cast him that per sec and a 2 sec hold is what would be needed (I didn't time it in the video, just a place holder) that whole lift would have caused him 8 HP of damage. Assuming he has about 14-16 HP this would count as a Major Wound, so the massive nose bleed and passing out after is well within the possibilities I guess. My only quandary about this is, once he hit 1/3 FP, his ST would have been halved, effectively ending the lift right there.

But how to model the variable FP cost? Is there something in the rules to warrant an 8 FP cost action like this?

Not that skilled with the system yet, just brainstorming.
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Old 02-23-2018, 02:35 AM   #27
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Actually that's not a massive deadlift (in strongman terms) certainly within the realms of possibility for an olympic lifter I'd have thought even if deadlift isn't an Olympic lift.

the current world record deadlift is 1,100lbs
OK. I watched that video and noted seveal things.

First, Eddie Hall wasn't at all able to throw the weight. GURPS two-handed lift assumes that you are able to do it, and that you are even able to harm a foe with it.

Second he did it only once (and even risked his life). GURPS two-handed lift assumes that you can do it several times in a raw, without the least problem.

So that kind of deadlift doesn't correspond to GURPS two-handed lift. In my humble opinion, snatch does much more.

Jareth's formula (BL x 12) does fit better to dead lift.

Furthermore, Eddie Hall probably has ST 15 (he is definitely amazing) plus one or two level of Lifting Strength, plus a Lifting skill level of 20 or higher. Add to that that he used FP, so the Extra Effort rule (which give +10% per -1 to the skill rather than +5% per point of margin of success) and you go much closer from that record.
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:59 AM   #28
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Thank you.

And that all we were thinking. Not a top competitor (yet), but definitely one to look out for in the coming years (had tragedy not struck).
Yep I think you've certainly encapsulated that in the build



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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
From what our group has read of Action (where the AP system is, IIRC) we are not real fans of it (the AP system, not Action). There are many thing in Action we do like, but that is not one. Would AP model what happens to Eddie Hall during his breaking of the world record with his 500 kg lift. This video doesn't have the angle, but in the Born Strong documentary you can clearly see blood pouring from his nose during the lift from the angle they filmed.

Ah I when I say AP system I thinking "Last Gasp" from Pyramid 3-44 by Douglas Cole. AP= Action point is basically a subsystem of FP that is more closely and more immediately managed. The article also goes into more detail about short and long term fatigue leveraging AP and FP.

I love it, but it is more detail!

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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
AFAIK, there is no real way to model that in GURPS, the success but...uh-oh!/failure with silver lining concept. I know other game systems have it: Shadowrun the Glitch, FFG Star Wars/Genesis does as well among others. This could model something like this well (at least in that respect)

Perhaps a variable fatigue option?


Take this lift. If just using FP and assuming he has about 16, that whole lift would have to put him the below 0 to represent that. Assuming the initial lift cost him about 8 FP and would cast him that per sec and a 2 sec hold is what would be needed (I didn't time it in the video, just a place holder) that whole lift would have caused him 8 HP of damage. Assuming he has about 14-16 HP this would count as a Major Wound, so the massive nose bleed and passing out after is well within the possibilities I guess. My only quandary about this is, once he hit 1/3 FP, his ST would have been halved, effectively ending the lift right there.

But how to model the variable FP cost? Is there something in the rules to warrant an 8 FP cost action like this?

Not that skilled with the system yet, just brainstorming.


The variable option is what I was thinking about when it came to spending different amounts of AP. However unless you made such a lift a series of actions the Last gasp system wouldn't work for progressingly exhausting yourself during one lift. However you could make it an extended lifting action where you were amassing successes over a series of rolls were you where sping AP (and possibly FP) to get the required total. Burn enough FP and you will end up like Hall.


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OK. I watched that video and noted seveal things.

First, Eddie Hall wasn't at all able to throw the weight. GURPS two-handed lift assumes that you are able to do it, and that you are even able to harm a foe with it.

Second he did it only once (and even risked his life). GURPS two-handed lift assumes that you can do it several times in a raw, without the least problem.

So that kind of deadlift doesn't correspond to GURPS two-handed lift. In my humble opinion, snatch does much more.

Jareth's formula (BL x 12) does fit better to dead lift.

Furthermore, Eddie Hall probably has ST 15 (he is definitely amazing) plus one or two level of Lifting Strength, plus a Lifting skill level of 20 or higher. Add to that that he used FP, so the Extra Effort rule (which give +10% per -1 to the skill rather than +5% per point of margin of success) and you go much closer from that record.
Yep (and see above for my first thought for how I'd do it)


One other build variable, I'd probably also split Arm and leg ST for some lifts that are more concentrated on them. For instance Dead lift to an extent and definately Squat, I'd say leg ST is predominant, stuff like bench press I say was arm ST. Core strength being pretty much involved in all but the most isolated single limb feats but that's not really GURPS relevant as Leg and Arm ST factor core strength in them.

And TBH for complex compound lifts I might well spilt the lift into sections with a roll each where for separate element one based on legs, and another arms. Of course if there's no variation it would be kind of irrelevant, but in reality some competitors builds and individual strengths do vary in this.


(but again I'd only go into this level of detail if I was actually running a WSM '18 campaign!)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-23-2018 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 02-23-2018, 04:46 AM   #29
Jareth Valar
 
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Yep I think you've certainly encapsulated that in the build
Thank you very much

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Ah I when I say AP system I thinking "Last Gasp" from Pyramid 3-44 by Douglas Cole. AP= Action point is basically a subsystem of FP that is more closely and more immediately managed. The article also goes into more detail about short and long term fatigue leveraging AP and FP.

I love it, but it is more detail!
Ah, we went over this option at the table and decided we liked the Long Term Fatigue option but the AP section was more bookkeeping that was wanted for this particular game. Same basic thing as in Action though, right?

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The variable ioption is what I as thinking about when it came to spending different amounts of AP. However unless you mede suchs lifte a series of actions tsh Last gas system wouldn't work for progressingly exhausting yourself during one lift. (however you could make it an extended liftiung action where you were amassing successes over a series of rolls were you where sping AP (and possibly FP) to get the required total. Burn enough FP and you will end up like Hall.
Re-reading the article I had an idea. What about an optional addition to the section "Persistence is Futile" section (or possibly used without that option of course).

If you successfully make your Will roll at a threshold (4/5, 3/5, 2/5, etc.) you may stay the effects of the ability loss for a time, however doing this causes you 1 HP of damage as you push yourself beyond your limits. Once you fail a Will roll or the turn after you are no longer spending FP, you immediately take all accrued penalties.

I think that this could possibly model the effects Eddie Hall suffered with the blood gushing during the lift and passing out right after. Thoughts?

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One other build variable, I'd probably also split Arm and leg ST for some lifts that are more concentrated on them. For instance Dead lift to an extent and defiantly Squat, I'd say leg ST is predominant, stuff like bench press I say was arm ST. Core strength being pretty much involved in all but the most isolated single limb feats but that's not really GURPS relevant as Leg and Arm ST factor core strength in them.

And TBH for complex compound lifts I might well spilt the lift into sections with a roll each where for separate element one based on legs, and another arms. Of course if there's no variation it would be kind of irrelevant, but in reality some competitors builds and individual strengths do vary in this.

(but again I'd only go into this level of detail if I was actually running a WSM '18 campaign!)
Very possible builds, have to look into that. Though we are still limited to 16 total for ST, but could represent a gradual build up by focusing on key areas first.
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Old 02-23-2018, 05:04 AM   #30
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Thank you very much
No worries


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Ah, we went over this option at the table and decided we liked the Long Term Fatigue option but the AP section was more bookkeeping that was wanted for this particular game. Same basic thing as in Action though, right?
I'm not sure (but I'm not that familiar with Action)

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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Re-reading the article I had an idea. What about an optional addition to the section "Persistence is Futile" section (or possibly used without that option of course).

If you successfully make your Will roll at a threshold (4/5, 3/5, 2/5, etc.) you may stay the effects of the ability loss for a time, however doing this causes you 1 HP of damage as you push yourself beyond your limits. Once you fail a Will roll or the turn after you are no longer spending FP, you immediately take all accrued penalties.

I think that this could possibly model the effects Eddie Hall suffered with the blood gushing during the lift and passing out right after. Thoughts?
.
Could do, But I think i'd either have it be the side effects of lots of FP loss,

Or if I was doing this as a series of rolls for one lift I'd also use the "hitting the wall" rules. This way if you are make the hitting the wall roll for every loss of FP and you were doing something where you were burning through your FP quickly even though HT+5 + training bonus means the first few you'll be fine, but dig really deep into your FPs and build that HT penalty and you increase the chances of losing HP.


This raises a point that someone made about this subject in a past thread. Some lifting equipment's benefit might be better modelled by effecting these rolls or mitigating the effect of critical failures, rather than straight bonuses to lifting.

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Very possible builds, have to look into that. Though we are still limited to 16 total for ST, but could represent a gradual build up by focusing on key areas first.
Well because I'm a bit of a "stat normaliser" ;-), I tend to model extreme human ability by working up through advantages that start at the broad in effect, and increasingly narrow in effect, to me that's a better way of demonstrating specialist/extreme ability without a lot of knock on effects of also being as great in other aspects of GURPS stats that are broad in scope.

This is personal taste, POV, game and genre driven though!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-24-2018 at 02:47 AM.
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