03-25-2013, 06:37 AM | #41 | ||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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However thinking about that what happens to the damage between 6 (to cripple the limb) and the 12 to remove it? i.e wound to a 10HT arm, look at the progression 1). 1-5 wound, 1-5 HP removed from total (and mods to using the limb as per MA) 2). 6 HP wound. 6 HP removed from total (and limb crippled) 3). 7-11 HP wound, 6 HP removed form total (and limb crippled) 4). 12 HP wound, 6 HP removed from total (and limb removed) 5). 13+ HP wound, 6 HP removed from total (and limb removed) There is no actually progression between stages 2 & 3? There's no progression between 4 & 5 either (unless you using extreme dismemberment) but that at least is explained basically as over penetration, stage 3 still has the weapon passing through the targets flesh? Quote:
Until bleeding kicks in the only immediate difference between these two wounds is that -5 mod on the knockdown roll. Now that's not insignificant, however if they manage to make there later HT roles to stay active, the guy with neck wound is actually better off RAW as he still has two legs! There being a one leg disadvantage you can apply but not a 'no head' disadvantage. Well I think I can imagine one, an extremely high value version of short life span! EDIT: OK not all the above is true neck wound guy is worse off RAW. however the point about the same wound chopping a leg off but not chopping a head off stands. The precedent is set to show it's possible to cut through stuff, (arms and legs) outside of HP loss and then ignored for necks. Quote:
Now obviously a HT10 isn't going to make too many HT10 rolls in a row but its still a bit odd. Lets make him HT12 or even 14 it goes from fringe result to a bit silly. So we either have one of two scenarios here, 1), Such a wound doesn't indicate decapitation even though it would indicate limb removal, i.e Necks in GURPS are for some reason extra resilient requiring you to be dead first or 2).The only thing that impairs a headless man from fighting is shock (HT rolls) or blood loss (bleeding taking you to -HP and then failing a -1HT roll), not the mechanical fact that his brain (and eyes) are rolling around on the floor in his severed head. Obviously this is a fringe situation, however what happens if we take my suggestion for adding an extra x1 on the wounding multiplier? Suddenly that's not a 16 pt wound leaving him at -6 waiting for blood loss to become life threatening in 2 mins when he gets to -10 Now it's a 24 point wound already putting him at less than -HP and he's rolling to stay alive every second. Otherwise you could just have a separate rules for cutting heads off just as you do for cutting legs and arms off. Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-25-2013 at 08:18 AM. |
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03-25-2013, 07:15 AM | #42 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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So now you have a 1/3 chance of hitting the brain (with imp/p attacks) 1/6 of losing an ear, does it really take 6 pts to remove a 10HT man's ear (tough ear)? I don't have my books with me, does removing the ear soak the remaining damage (like limbs do) that makes ears quite erm.. ablative? Also I assume you get the same multipliers for wound types. So if we average the actual multipliers from your table Imp 1 x2 2 x4 3 x1 (assuming an ear counts as an arm or leg)* 4 x2 5 x2 6 x4 = x2.5 (mine would be x3, RAW x2) *x2 if it imp multiplier still applies, making thr average x2.66 (x3) Cutting: yours is x1.5 mine x2.5 RAW x1.5 Crushing: yours is x1 mine x1 RAW x1 Corrosion: yours is x1.5 mine is x1.5 RAW x1.5 -Pen 1 x0.5 2 x4 3 x0.5** 4 x0.5 5 x0.5 6 x4 = x1.66 (x2), RAW x0.5, mine is x1.5 **now if it's a limb and Pen multipliers don't apply does that boost small piecing attacks to x1 (I'd rule not) EDIT: and it explicitly says it doesn't anyway. Pen 1 x1 2 x4 3 x1 4 x1 5 x1 6 x4 = x2, RAW x1, mine is x2 +Pen 1 x1.5 2 x4 3 x1*** 4 x1.5 5 x1.5 6 x4 = x2.25 (x2), RAW x1.5, mine is x2.5 *** doesn't actually change if the ear gets the x1.5 (it's x2.33 rather than x2.25) Your's has more detail and greater differentiation between damage types, and the above comparison is also going to depend on the 'ear questions'. Mine's simpler. I like yours I have to say, and yours has the advantage of taking into account partial coverage from helmets (which was the initial point I guess). EDIT: and its HP/4 to remove an ear (makes sense) however it also loses the rest of the damage, which doesn't*. By the same argument the eye and nose shot would loose the rest of their damages after destroying the eye and nose. However I think that's because the ear location write up in MA is there for longitudinal cutting blows that are specifically only tying to remove the ear. There the issue that the ear is at 90 degrees to those other body parts, but then that brings up another issue in that by actual physical location I'd ague te ear is on the head (skull) not face. and so on., and so on. Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-26-2013 at 12:36 AM. |
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03-25-2013, 09:01 AM | #43 | |||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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The neck, well, look. Bleeding. Any neck wound bleeds very very badly. Like, almost as badly as vitals. It doesn't provide a quick hard stop but it makes getting shot in he neck a huge deal anyway. If you want to hard-stop someone with a neck wound, of course, you go cutting arteries, and get a wounding factor nearly the same as vitals and bleeding rules exactly the same, except that you can use your cutting damage so it's actually more damaging than a vitals stab in many cases. Quote:
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...Then you seem to be going on to argue that there's a problem with decapitated characters still fighting under the rules and I've got no idea what that's about since you know that the only rules for getting decapitated entail dying. It's a bit of a general thing that 'instant death' in GURPS doesn't necessarily correspond to instant death or even instant incapacitation in reality, I think. Short of pulping your brain most wounds are going to need at least a few seconds for your body to go from general circulatory failure to fully non-functional. Uh, no, rolling to stay alive every second is not a thing. Below -HP you roll to stay alive once. You roll to stay conscious every second.
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03-25-2013, 01:12 PM | #44 | |||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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Good point, however also one that demonstrates that wounds that would be able to sever you leg, are somehow much less likley toi sever you head when they get you in the neck! Lets get silly for second, assuming a 10St 10Ht target using extreme dismemberment I would need to roll 12 damage to get an 18 wound in order to chop of both his legs. (12 points needed to sever the first leg, 6 points deducted actually going though the first leg leaving 12 for the 2nd leg, severing that as well). Target actually only takes 12 HP damage but hey he's got no legs, and he's going to bleed out. Lets do that to his neck. So a blow that is strong enough to automatically remove both legs at once, is a 24 points wound, which takes him below -HP so he has to roll to live, but he has a 50% chance of doing so. So RAW a blow that automatically severs both legs only has a 50% chance of being a chance of a decapitation (but as you say death by neck wound isn't always a decapitation, even if decapitation is always a death blow). If he has very fit or just +2HT the blow that took both his legs, only has a 1/4 chance of taking his head. Now bleeding rules means he's dead later anyway of course, buts that's what kills the legless guy as well. Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-25-2013 at 01:24 PM. |
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03-25-2013, 01:30 PM | #45 | ||||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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If you go through the face in that cross-section you're bound to hit the central nervous system someplace, but that's because it's a cross-section straight through the mid-line. The reality is rather less 2-dimensional. Quote:
The Face is not just the front of the head, some of that is Skull (or Eye). And, frankly, stabbing people in the head in general isn't something I hear a lot about either. Except the occasional fictional commando-type whose favored kill is a stab to the brain which is absolutely a called shot to the skull at -7 or the eye at -9. (Side note: possibly there should be a rule specifically for targeting the brain from below? Jabbing through the roof of the mouth and so forth bypasses most helmets.) Quote:
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03-25-2013, 01:59 PM | #46 |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
FWIW, I always viewed the rules surrounding neck wounds as partly a game balance thing. On some level, using a sword to remove a leg shouldn't be THAT much harder than using the sword to cut through a neck, thus removing a head.
However, that would bypass GURPS's death rules--you only die instantly at -HTx5 or if you fail a death check. Being able to cause effective instant death by dealing HP or so of damage to the Neck hit location would break that model--badly. The only method that you would see to kill enemies with such a rule is to hack off heads. Importantly, experience and history show that it's simply not that easy to decapitate someone in a combat situation. Thus, the rules are as they are. I think Neck is plenty bad as it is, particularly using the MA rules for bleeding and neck wounds (MA 138--those are NOT fun for a setting without magical or extremely high tech healing).
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03-25-2013, 10:27 PM | #47 | |||||||||
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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To be active the next turn, the guy who lost a leg simply has to make a single HT roll for knockdown to avoid being stunned. The guy with the neck wound must make both a HT-5 roll for knockdown (And if he fails to even make his normal HT, he's immediately unconscious), as well as a HT roll the next turn to not fall unconscious. He's much less likely to make those rolls and be active than the guy with the leg wound. Even if he does luck out and makes both those rolls, he's still rolling HT every single turn he's active to avoid passing out, something the leg-wound guy doesn't have to worry about. That's a lot of immediate effects you're trying to skip over. Quote:
If anything, I'd stay GURPS is too generous toward dismemberment, rather than too stingy toward decapitation. Quote:
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The only immediate difference between a 16-point injury and a 24-point injury to the neck is that the 24-point injury has a single additional roll in order to act on the next turn, and the HT rolls to stay conscious are at -1 each turn. For a HT10 person, that means he went from having a 2.3% chance of acting next turn to a 0.9% chance. Chances of being immediately incapacitated (Unconscious or dead) are 75% for the 16-point injury and ~90% for the 24-point injury. And even if they somehow make it into the unlikely category of staying active through that wound, they still have a 50% or 62.5% chance of passing out each turn. This is compared to a 50% chance of the guy with the leg wound being able to act next turn, and only a 1.9% chance of him being immediately rendered unconscious. He's more than 20 times more likely to be able to act immediately than if he got hit in the neck with that 8-point attack, and almost 40 times more likely to not be rendered unconscious. I think you are drastically under-valuing the effects the neck and face locations have by not considering these things. They are far closer to vitals and brain hits than to regular torso hits in terms of immediate incapacitation and impairment. (For reference, an 8-point damage blow to the brain, dealing 24 injury, would leave a 0.7% chance of the target being able to act next turn, and a ~99% chance of being immediately unconscious or dead, much closer to the results for the neck wound (2.3% and 75%) than the leg wound (50% and 1.9%)) Quote:
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03-26-2013, 12:31 AM | #48 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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03-26-2013, 12:43 AM | #49 |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
I can list plenty of accounts where people had their arms or legs amputated in combat. There was one skeleton recovered from Wisby that apparently had both legs amputated with one blow! However, I can't recall many incidents where someone was decapitated in battle. There are a few, but not as many as severed arms or legs.
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03-26-2013, 01:13 AM | #50 | ||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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fair enough, and I've read them, given the fact they had to start working on bracing modifiers etc, I think they made my point that necks seem to be unusually resistant to getting severed. Which would be fine, however legs and arms don't seem to be its the lack of consistency that puzzles me. Unless it is just a game balance thing. |
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