Defining IQ - Page 9

AlexanderHowl · 03-06-2018, 02:51 PM

How do we know that such people do not exist? If every level of IQ or DX represented a significant figure, then anyone above 14 is going to be quite rare, less than 1:10,000, which is the same proportion of households making more than $20 million per year in the USA. How many people do we know that make that level of income? Do we doubt that they exist because we do not personally know any of them?

Anthony · 03-06-2018, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

How do we know that such people do not exist?

Because they'd be pretty notable. The basic problem is that 'IQ" is measuring something that it's not at all clear exists.

AlexanderHowl · 03-06-2018, 09:23 PM

Are households that earn $20 million per year notable in the USA? As in, how easy is it to find the names of the 800 households in NYC that have that level of wealth? Just because a person is exceptional does not mean that they seek fame.

Someone with a GURPS IQ 15 could just be an exceptional scientist in a field that does not attract public attention (such as Andean botany or Pulsar astronomy). Just because someone can be good at everything does not mean that they do not devote their lives to be the best at one thing. People with that high GURPS IQ would have no reason to seek fame if a) they are doing what they love or b) they are making money hand over fist. In addition, they could be criminals, so they would have a vested interest in avoiding public attention.

Gollum · 03-06-2018, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

How do we know that such people do not exist?

We don't. Such people could exist, indeed. And they wouldn't necessary be famous. To be famous, you need to be skilled enough, of course, but you also need to seek it. Some people just don't want celebrity. It may even be a proof of intelligence.

But the point is not here. No matter if GURPS IQ does or does not correlate with something real. The author's point was: how to easily create a fictional super genius? And, with the way IQ works in GURPS, it is very easy. Just give him (or her) a very high IQ score.

While it is not at all as easy with other roleplaying games like the Basic RolePlaying System, for instance. Ditto for super dextrous and polyvalent heroes. Ditto for Conan like guys. And so on. Just give him or her a very high DX, ST ...

With the 4 basic attributes you can create any main type of fictional hero very easily. While with games where there are more attributes, and where the link between skills and attributes is not so clear and strong, it is far much harder ... If even possible. You can write down their stats, of course, but you won't ever have enough skill points to build a character like James Bond or Indiana Jones, who sound to be good at anything.

So, yes, there is a link between GURPS IQ and real IQ. Contrary to what has been said above (far above, in the first pages of that thread) I wouldn't try to create a genius with a quite low IQ score. But that link is not mathematical. It is fuzzy. While the link with fictional characters is much stronger.

Mentally handicapped: 6
Dumb: 7 or 8
Average: 9 to 11
Smart: 12
Realistic genius: 13 or 14
Super genius: 15 or more.

~~VonKatzen~~ · 03-07-2018, 02:01 AM

I don't have the stamina to read through this entire thread, but I would say that I think IQ is basically "how good you are at things which depend primarily upon the operation of mental faculties", which is (as other have said) way outside the scope of g or psychometric analysis (or, really, the capability of most people to assess in any mechanical way).

Most of what real-world psychometric analysis deals with is a correlation for abilities involving information analysis. Many - maybe most - people with high IQs have emotional and social problems. To speculate this is in part because they have a hard time interacting with lower-IQ people, and because in order to produce that much efficiency in one direction a person's brain has to be very abnormal to begin with. There may also be actual, hard limits to how 'intelligent' any imaginable creature could be because of how focus and functionality are often at cross-purposes. While real world IQ does correlate with many GURPS IQ-based skills, the higher the real-world IQ the more this breaks down. People with 130 IQ tend to do better in business, are able to both fit in and impress lower-IQ people, etc. People with an IQ 150, on the other hand, are often incapable of holding a job because they have no interests that aren't academic or abstract and don't even know how to 'lower themselves' to the level required to interact with their supervisors and customers. I doubt most mega-successful entrepreneurs, politicians, artists or writers are much above 130 Real-World IQ for many of the reasons listed above. A certain level of intelligence may be simply impractical, whereas in GURPS there is no downside associated with a high IQ.

GURPS IQ is also unrealistically broad if we take it to be closely related to real-world IQ, of whatever level. There is simply no one, no matter how intelligent, that is good at that many things.

IQ is a mechanical abstraction, and while highly intelligent people (in the real world) would probably merit a couple of IQ points they're better represented by a host of talents, advantages and perks.

This isn't necessarily true in fictional or superhuman characters, though. Doctor Doom is so good at everything that he does warrant both a very high GURPS IQ and as superhuman real-world IQ. But that real-world IQ would be a function of his high GURPS IQ, rather than the reverse. The man's brain is simply a miracle machine, and that is why very high IQs are well advised against in GURPS. They're not only game-breaking in terms of skills, they're also not at all what real intelligence (even the most fantastic genius with the broadest talents) is like.

This is generally in line with what Gollum wrote above, too. Conan and James Bond probably warrant a high GURPS IQ (and DX, along with Talents and Advantages) due to their broad natural ability in many areas, but this would only be weakly correlated with real-world IQ. James Bond is not a science nerd, and Conan is not a philosophy nerd - though both can hold their own surprisingly well in these areas when pressed, they simply don't think/act like many real-world MENSA types do. GURPS IQ and DX at high levels don't produce 'realistic' smart and agile people, they produce elf-like ubermensch (which is exactly what these two Scottish sociopaths are).

Finally, this can also apply to Strength. Real world people with incredible strength tend to have high Lifting ST and maybe HP but don't cleave through plate armor (this has been discussed in other threads, so I'll leave it at that); however someone like Conan has a flat out high ST, maybe a 21+, because he is not only able to pick up stone benches and tank melee attacks but really does cleave through armor with his swords.

Fiction is often not realistic (surprise!) even when it isn't overtly gonzo, and it tends to define characters with broad strokes rather than the detailed minutia that makes up real people. In fact a careful crafting of a GURPS character with all these points in mind is going to be more realistic than most fictional characters, simply because GURPS does have consistent mechanical minutia which fiction authors do not think of or are not consistent about. In GURPS, for example, even the weakest version of Superman ought to have elevendy-godzillian strength, a 15+ IQ and DX, etc. but he also constantly fails to display the sort of intelligence and situational awareness real people have. A GURPS Superman is going to be far more effective than comic book Superman for this reason.

JoelSammallahti · 03-07-2018, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonKatzen

People with an IQ 150, on the other hand, are often incapable of holding a job because they have no interests that aren't academic or abstract and don't even know how to 'lower themselves' to the level required to interact with their supervisors and customers. I doubt most mega-successful entrepreneurs, politicians, artists or writers are much above 130 Real-World IQ for many of the reasons listed above. A certain level of intelligence may be simply impractical, whereas in GURPS there is no downside associated with a high IQ.

That's incorrect. I've tried briefly to look into where this myth of very-high-IQ individuals doing less well professionally and socially comes from, with no success. There's no evidence that (real-world) IQ above some optimal level is associated with poorer outcomes. Most mega-successful entrepeneurs, politicians, etc. probably aren't much above IQ 130, as you stated, but not for that reason. It's simply because of how far fewer people there are the further towards the tail of the distribution we go. The SMPY and Duke TIP research programs clearly show that individuals with IQ 160+ do very, very well professionally, as well as having low divorce rates, practically nonexistent crime rates, and normal self-reported life satisfaction.

Flyndaran · 03-07-2018, 03:17 AM

It's like saying that extremely strong people are incapable of holding jobs, because they only care about strength uses.
People are not just one single facet.

Tomsdad · 03-07-2018, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

That's incorrect. I've tried briefly to look into where this myth of very-high-IQ individuals doing less well professionally and socially comes from, with no success. There's no evidence that (real-world) IQ above some optimal level is associated with poorer outcomes. Most mega-successful entrepeneurs, politicians, etc. probably aren't much above IQ 130, as you stated, but not for that reason. It's simply because of how far fewer people there are the further towards the tail of the distribution we go. The SMPY and Duke TIP research programs clearly show that individuals with IQ 160+ do very, very well professionally, as well as having low divorce rates, practically nonexistent crime rates, and normal self-reported life satisfaction.

Or maybe they good at not getting caught! ;-)

Seriously though yes I agree, there are so many conflicting ways this could express I can't see how you'd ever show let alone prove that IQ160+ people are underachieving!

If nothing else do IQ160+ people actually underachieve compared to their theoretical potential or do some people just have unrealistically high expectations of them and what their lives should be like! (and that begs the question how do we define achieve, your point about normal self-reported life satisfaction would seem relevant here)

And as you say there seems to be a positive correlation here between such metrics and IQ160+ anyway, so even if they're not as happily married as some think they should be, they seem happily married enough.

AlexanderHowl · 03-07-2018, 07:41 AM

I think that high IQ criminals are capable of doing effective evaluations of the cost-benefit ratio of each crime and tend to go for maximum return with minimum cost. In the modern age, that would tend to be cybercrime and/or stock market manipulation. In the former case, the crime can be committed through programs seeded weeks or months before the event. In the latter case, the crime can be committed through people who do not know that they are committing the crime (such as with a pump and dump). Unless they have severe impulse control issues, they will likely not get caught dealing drugs or robbing banks.

Tomsdad · 03-07-2018, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I think that high IQ criminals are capable of doing effective evaluations of the cost-benefit ratio of each crime and tend to go for maximum return with minimum cost. In the modern age, that would tend to be cybercrime and/or stock market manipulation. In the former case, the crime can be committed through programs seeded weeks or months before the event. In the latter case, the crime can be committed through people who do not know that they are committing the crime (such as with a pump and dump). Unless they have severe impulse control issues, they will likely not get caught dealing drugs or robbing banks.

Also as mentioned earlier if higher IQ tends to correlate with better impulse control, your less likely to get "heat of the moment" crimes as well.

03-06-2018, 02:51 PM	#81
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Defining IQ How do we know that such people do not exist? If every level of IQ or DX represented a significant figure, then anyone above 14 is going to be quite rare, less than 1:10,000, which is the same proportion of households making more than $20 million per year in the USA. How many people do we know that make that level of income? Do we doubt that they exist because we do not personally know any of them?

03-06-2018, 09:23 PM	#83
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Defining IQ Are households that earn $20 million per year notable in the USA? As in, how easy is it to find the names of the 800 households in NYC that have that level of wealth? Just because a person is exceptional does not mean that they seek fame. Someone with a GURPS IQ 15 could just be an exceptional scientist in a field that does not attract public attention (such as Andean botany or Pulsar astronomy). Just because someone can be good at everything does not mean that they do not devote their lives to be the best at one thing. People with that high GURPS IQ would have no reason to seek fame if a) they are doing what they love or b) they are making money hand over fist. In addition, they could be criminals, so they would have a vested interest in avoiding public attention.

03-07-2018, 02:01 AM	#85
~~VonKatzen~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2018	Re: Defining IQ I don't have the stamina to read through this entire thread, but I would say that I think IQ is basically "how good you are at things which depend primarily upon the operation of mental faculties", which is (as other have said) way outside the scope of g or psychometric analysis (or, really, the capability of most people to assess in any mechanical way). Most of what real-world psychometric analysis deals with is a correlation for abilities involving information analysis. Many - maybe most - people with high IQs have emotional and social problems. To speculate this is in part because they have a hard time interacting with lower-IQ people, and because in order to produce that much efficiency in one direction a person's brain has to be very abnormal to begin with. There may also be actual, hard limits to how 'intelligent' any imaginable creature could be because of how focus and functionality are often at cross-purposes. While real world IQ does correlate with many GURPS IQ-based skills, the higher the real-world IQ the more this breaks down. People with 130 IQ tend to do better in business, are able to both fit in and impress lower-IQ people, etc. People with an IQ 150, on the other hand, are often incapable of holding a job because they have no interests that aren't academic or abstract and don't even know how to 'lower themselves' to the level required to interact with their supervisors and customers. I doubt most mega-successful entrepreneurs, politicians, artists or writers are much above 130 Real-World IQ for many of the reasons listed above. A certain level of intelligence may be simply impractical, whereas in GURPS there is no downside associated with a high IQ. GURPS IQ is also unrealistically broad if we take it to be closely related to real-world IQ, of whatever level. There is simply no one, no matter how intelligent, that is good at that many things. IQ is a mechanical abstraction, and while highly intelligent people (in the real world) would probably merit a couple of IQ points they're better represented by a host of talents, advantages and perks. This isn't necessarily true in fictional or superhuman characters, though. Doctor Doom is so good at everything that he does warrant both a very high GURPS IQ and as superhuman real-world IQ. But that real-world IQ would be a function of his high GURPS IQ, rather than the reverse. The man's brain is simply a miracle machine, and that is why very high IQs are well advised against in GURPS. They're not only game-breaking in terms of skills, they're also not at all what real intelligence (even the most fantastic genius with the broadest talents) is like. This is generally in line with what Gollum wrote above, too. Conan and James Bond probably warrant a high GURPS IQ (and DX, along with Talents and Advantages) due to their broad natural ability in many areas, but this would only be weakly correlated with real-world IQ. James Bond is not a science nerd, and Conan is not a philosophy nerd - though both can hold their own surprisingly well in these areas when pressed, they simply don't think/act like many real-world MENSA types do. GURPS IQ and DX at high levels don't produce 'realistic' smart and agile people, they produce elf-like ubermensch (which is exactly what these two Scottish sociopaths are). Finally, this can also apply to Strength. Real world people with incredible strength tend to have high Lifting ST and maybe HP but don't cleave through plate armor (this has been discussed in other threads, so I'll leave it at that); however someone like Conan has a flat out high ST, maybe a 21+, because he is not only able to pick up stone benches and tank melee attacks but really does cleave through armor with his swords. Fiction is often not realistic (surprise!) even when it isn't overtly gonzo, and it tends to define characters with broad strokes rather than the detailed minutia that makes up real people. In fact a careful crafting of a GURPS character with all these points in mind is going to be more realistic than most fictional characters, simply because GURPS does have consistent mechanical minutia which fiction authors do not think of or are not consistent about. In GURPS, for example, even the weakest version of Superman ought to have elevendy-godzillian strength, a 15+ IQ and DX, etc. but he also constantly fails to display the sort of intelligence and situational awareness real people have. A GURPS Superman is going to be far more effective than comic book Superman for this reason. Last edited by VonKatzen; 03-07-2018 at 02:24 AM.

03-07-2018, 03:17 AM	#87
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Defining IQ It's like saying that extremely strong people are incapable of holding jobs, because they only care about strength uses. People are not just one single facet. __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.

03-07-2018, 07:41 AM	#89
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Defining IQ I think that high IQ criminals are capable of doing effective evaluations of the cost-benefit ratio of each crime and tend to go for maximum return with minimum cost. In the modern age, that would tend to be cybercrime and/or stock market manipulation. In the former case, the crime can be committed through programs seeded weeks or months before the event. In the latter case, the crime can be committed through people who do not know that they are committing the crime (such as with a pump and dump). Unless they have severe impulse control issues, they will likely not get caught dealing drugs or robbing banks.