Question on SW Protocol Droids and Languages

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Are we ever told, "Oh, fortunately, I just happen to have learned that language"? No, we're told, "I am fluent in over six million forms of communication." So it's not being presented as a fortuitous outcome of a choice to study specific languages out of a much larger list (like Sidney Bristow speaking less than 1% of all human languages that conveniently happen to include whatever's being spoken in the current scene). Indeed, it hardly could be; if Threepio's makers had spent a century training him, he would have had to learn 60,000 languages a year, which would give him less than 10 minutes per language. Having him download files makes a lot more sense.

"Computer Files" or "Fortuitous coincidence" are both 0-point special effects that could be used to justify either trait.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Indeed, it hardly could be; if Threepio's makers had spent a century training him, he would have had to learn 60,000 languages a year, which would give him less than 10 minutes per language. Having him download files makes a lot more sense.

2 things:

1 - Why are you so wrapped on learning times?

2 - Nothing in Omni or Xenolingual limit the PC to only knowing languages they could have learned in a reasonable time frame.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Are we ever told, "Oh, fortunately, I just happen to have learned that language"? No, we're told, "I am fluent in over six million forms of communication." So it's not being presented as a fortuitous outcome of a choice to study specific languages out of a much larger list (like Sidney Bristow speaking less than 1% of all human languages that conveniently happen to include whatever's being spoken in the current scene). Indeed, it hardly could be; if Threepio's makers had spent a century training him, he would have had to learn 60,000 languages a year, which would give him less than 10 minutes per language. Having him download files makes a lot more sense.

Downloading skillsets doesn't seem to be a thing that droids do. They are purpose-built and hardwired for a function. There's no option for C-3PO to get the Roger skill set and suddenly turn from an incompetent diplomat into an incompetent soldier.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

2 things:

1 - Why are you so wrapped on learning times?

2 - Nothing in Omni or Xenolingual limit the PC to only knowing languages they could have learned in a reasonable time frame.

I wrote the traits in question. Part of their wording is, "You don’t actually speak all of the Earth’s 5,000 or so languages; it’s just that each new language you encounter turns out to be one that you’ve studied." There is nothing in there about your having learned those languages by magic, or superscience, or psionics, or being an AI with downloading capabilities. Nor is Omnilingual an exotic or supernatural trait. It's just something a perfectly normal human being could have in a cinematic campaign where larger-than-life human capabilities are commonplace. That is part of the definition of the trait in the rules.

And it works specifically because, in a movie, or a television series, or an rpg campaign, you simply are not going to have occasion for a protagonist (or antagonist) to display knowledge of Earth's roughly 5000 languages, or even of 500. So you can have a trait that represents "speaking lots and lots of languages."

But if you have a character who is fluent in six million languages (or "forms of communication")—how did they acquire that ability? Not in the way a human being learns languages. The learning time to get to accented competence in that many languages is 4,800,000,000 hours, or 200,000,000 days, or just under 550,000 years. Even if you allow multiple steps of accelerated learning (which is also something I wrote up, for GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School), you aren't going to get to a reasonable time.

Did they acquire it by downloading? If so, that exactly fits Modular Abilities. But then why should they not continue to use that capability when USING the languages? Is there any reason for it to have suddenly gone away?

You think of "the rules" as meaning only the numbers on a character sheet, and the dice you have to roll. But to me, the rules are also an implied narrative about the character, and a type of story where that type of narrative is at home. Gaming, to me, is a form of literature, and the rules are tools for achieving literary effects.

And also, you seem to be eager to pay a whole lot more points—something like 120 for Xenoomnilingual with the Cosmic modifier, plus another 10 for Language Talent—to get a capability that works in a certain way, when you can buy a capability that does everything Threepio is shown to do, and that also can be interpreted literally as "fluent in over six million forms of communication," for less than half as many points. So I'll turn the question back around at you: What is it that Xenoomnilingual lets you do, and that Modular Abilities (6; 4; Computer Brain; Trait-Limited, Languages Only) doesn't, that is crucial enough to justify spending maybe a hundred extra points to get?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Did they acquire it by downloading? If so, that exactly fits Modular Abilities. But then why should they not continue to use that capability when USING the languages? Is there any reason for it to have suddenly gone away?

Downloading from what? C-3PO demonstrates his ability to language on planets where the most advanced accessible technology apart from him and his sidekick is neolithic.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Downloading from what? C-3PO demonstrates his ability to language on planets where the most advanced accessible technology apart from him and his sidekick is neolithic.

So you give him an internal memory bank that holds them, and you refigure the costs of the slots and character points slightly, following the guidelines in GURPS Powers. And then he can do exactly what my desktop does when I tell it to play a particular piece of music: He can bring it up from internal storage and put it into active processing. There are certainly forms of Modular Abilities that don't require an external source.

[talonthehand]

Originally Posted by whswhs

And also, you seem to be eager to pay a whole lot more points—something like 120 for Xenoomnilingual with the Cosmic modifier, plus another 10 for Language Talent—to get a capability that works in a certain way, when you can buy a capability that does everything Threepio is shown to do, and that also can be interpreted literally as "fluent in over six million forms of communication," for less than half as many points. So I'll turn the question back around at you: What is it that Xenoomnilingual lets you do, and that Modular Abilities (6; 4; Computer Brain; Trait-Limited, Languages Only) doesn't, that is crucial enough to justify spending maybe a hundred extra points to get?

A couple things. First, C3PO wasn't built on a point budget. He costs however much he costs. That may or may not apply to the original poster. Secondly...in game effects matters more than how the character got the trait. If C3PO is capable of translating all the species in a meeting of the senate on the fly, then Modular Abilities doesn't cover it, even if downloading better matches the justification for it.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Downloading from what? C-3PO demonstrates his ability to language on planets where the most advanced accessible technology apart from him and his sidekick is neolithic.

That is where the TL11 Universal Translator program comes in. For the 6 million forms of communication he does have a 100 GB database for he doesn't need to do more than bring up the appropriate translation program from storage.

There have been pages and pages going round and round about an exotic ability that isn't necessary in this situation.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I wrote the traits in question. Part of their wording is, "You don’t actually speak all of the Earth’s 5,000 or so languages; it’s just that each new language you encounter turns out to be one that you’ve studied." There is nothing in there about your having learned those languages by magic, or superscience, or psionics, or being an AI with downloading capabilities. Nor is Omnilingual an exotic or supernatural trait. It's just something a perfectly normal human being could have in a cinematic campaign where larger-than-life human capabilities are commonplace. That is part of the definition of the trait in the rules.

And it works specifically because, in a movie, or a television series, or an rpg campaign, you simply are not going to have occasion for a protagonist (or antagonist) to display knowledge of Earth's roughly 5000 languages, or even of 500. So you can have a trait that represents "speaking lots and lots of languages."

But if you have a character who is fluent in six million languages (or "forms of communication")—how did they acquire that ability? Not in the way a human being learns languages. The learning time to get to accented competence in that many languages is 4,800,000,000 hours, or 200,000,000 days, or just under 550,000 years. Even if you allow multiple steps of accelerated learning (which is also something I wrote up, for GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School), you aren't going to get to a reasonable time.

Did they acquire it by downloading? If so, that exactly fits Modular Abilities. But then why should they not continue to use that capability when USING the languages? Is there any reason for it to have suddenly gone away?

You think of "the rules" as meaning only the numbers on a character sheet, and the dice you have to roll. But to me, the rules are also an implied narrative about the character, and a type of story where that type of narrative is at home. Gaming, to me, is a form of literature, and the rules are tools for achieving literary effects.

I think this response is useful:

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

The description is, at the first stage, a simple sentence: "There are people who can speak every language they encounter." For practical game purposes, these people can always talk to anyone they encounter.

Now, there are several possible explanations for this - explicitly supernatural ("it's magic"), explicitly technological (something with nanobots), metatextual (they can merely speak a lot of languages, but narrative convention, perceived if at all in the setting as dumb luck, ensures that the list always includes the language they need on meeting someone new). Those explanations in turn may be very interesting, and say a lot about the nature of the setting. Fine. But for purposes of points cost allocation, if they don't have an effect in play, they don't matter worth spit. The ability is worth what it's worth to the character as a game-mechanical construct. Insisting on bringing them into discussions of points costings merely appears to be fetishising world design above any concerns about actually playing the game.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by whswhs

There is nothing in there about your having learned those languages by magic, or superscience, or psionics, or being an AI with downloading capabilities.

Most Advantages don't make those distinctions either. Take Absolute Timing as an example...

Nor is Omnilingual an exotic or supernatural trait.

Actually it's a "Not Listed As Anything" trait.

It's just something a perfectly normal human being could have in a cinematic campaign where larger-than-life human capabilities are commonplace. That is part of the definition of the trait in the rules.

I consider that line fluff text because that's really all it is.

And it works specifically because, in a movie, or a television series, or an rpg campaign, you simply are not going to have occasion for a protagonist (or antagonist) to display knowledge of Earth's roughly 5000 languages, or even of 500. So you can have a trait that represents "speaking lots and lots of languages."

Hey, look at that, perfect justification for being 'fluent in over six million forms of communication".

But if you have a character who is fluent in six million languages (or "forms of communication")—how did they acquire that ability?

Only matters if the trait has a Power Modifier.

You think of "the rules" as meaning only the numbers on a character sheet, and the dice you have to roll. But to me, the rules are also an implied narrative about the character, and a type of story where that type of narrative is at home. Gaming, to me, is a form of literature, and the rules are tools for achieving literary effects.

Ugh, my eyes rolled so hard i hurt something.

And also, you seem to be eager to pay a whole lot more points...

I'm not eager for anything. I've just always wondered why you fetishize using Modular Abilities over this trait when Modular does not do everything Omni/Xenolingual does.

What is it that Xenoomnilingual lets you do, and that Modular Abilities (6; 4; Computer Brain; Trait-Limited, Languages Only) doesn't, that is crucial enough to justify spending maybe a hundred extra points to get?

Hold a conversation in more than six languages at once.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

That is where the TL11 Universal Translator program comes in. For the 6 million forms of communication he does have a 100 GB database for he doesn't need to do more than bring up the appropriate translation program from storage.

There have been pages and pages going round and round about an exotic ability that isn't necessary in this situation.

Yup, in this sort of a setting the Accessory Perk is probably the best way to work this.

However not sure it covers Cultural/Xeno-Adaptability.