Discount for buying both Trained by a Master and Weapon Master?

[Michael Thayne]

Trained by a Master and Weapon Master overlap rather substantially. In a sense TbaM is a version of Weapon Master that trades per-die damage bonuses for inclusion of unarmed attacks/parries. So 75 points for TbaM and Weapon Master (All) seems rather excessive. I can see a couple approaches to fixing this—ranging from making "unarmed only" a -50% limitation on TbaM, to making a True Master advantage (which is just TbaM + WM) worth as little as 50 points. But which approach is the right one?

[Varyon]

I'd lean more toward [50] to allow completely-unarmed strikes to benefit from Weapon Master (after all, at [45] for All Weapons, fist loads and the like already benefit). Perhaps "Combat Master" would be an appropriate name for the trait?

[Celjabba]

Pk suggested a "No Melee Weapons" limitation for TBAM (somewhere between -30% and -50%).

Taking WM(all weapons) + TBAM(No Melee Weapons, -xx%) is an option.

Using Alternative abilities is possible but probably not wise since you would need to spend a ready maneuver to switch between armed/unarmed mode...
Still, if you already have an extra-ready, and WM, paying [3] for TBAM(No Melee Weapons,-50%, AA of WM) is a cheap backup should you happen to be disarmed*.


*: I think this sentence suffer from an Excessive Use of Acronym...

[Phil Masters]

Both, plus Gunslinger, probably need to be merged into a single "Combat Mastery" with a multiplicity of levels/options.

[Icelander]

Weapon Master at the highest level explicitly already includes kicking while wearing boots or punching while wearing gauntlets or holding anything, which makes it non-sensical to imagine it not applying to the same attacks without boots or handwear.

I agree that a substantial discount should be given for any character who wants both, for some reason, as they overlap almost entirely.

[kirbwarrior]

In my house rules TbaM is just Weapon Master: Unarmed [15] and gets all the benefits of TbaM while Weapon Master: All includes it. It lines up well with how I've seen it usually -50% on TbaM. That 15 might looks cheap but from what I've put together you get less benefits from it than Weapon Master: One Weapon and Signature Gear for 21pts.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd lean more toward [50] to allow completely-unarmed strikes to benefit from Weapon Master (after all, at [45] for All Weapons, fist loads and the like already benefit). Perhaps "Combat Master" would be an appropriate name for the trait?

Originally Posted by Icelander

Weapon Master at the highest level explicitly already includes kicking while wearing boots or punching while wearing gauntlets or holding anything, which makes it non-sensical to imagine it not applying to the same attacks without boots or handwear.

I agree that a substantial discount should be given for any character who wants both, for some reason, as they overlap almost entirely.

These are good points. I'm almost tempted to make "Weapon Master (All) applies to unarmed attacks" a perk, somewhat analogous to Striking Service.

[Arcanjo7Sagi]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

These are good points. I'm almost tempted to make "Weapon Master (All) applies to unarmed attacks" a perk, somewhat analogous to Striking Service.

It must be done carefully so as not to affect the game balance, as both Weapon Master and Karate/Boxing/Brawling has damage bonus.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi

It must be done carefully so as not to affect the game balance, as both Weapon Master and Karate/Boxing/Brawling has damage bonus.

They don't stack. Otherwise, Weapon Masters would all use brass knuckles instead of proper weapons.

[the_matrix_walker]

You could take a cue from Alternative Attack and charge 1/5th for the cheaper one (in case you're buying a weapon limited version). Of course, you wouldn't get the stacking defensive bonuses to reduce those extra parries down to a -1.