[Low-Tech Companion] Spiked Pavise

[acrosome]

How should a spiked pavise be modeled? Just a shield with a spike? The rules seem to assume a spiked boss, which this really isn't. Might it work more like the bit about Blades on shields, on Low-Tech Companion 2 p. 20?

[Varyon]

I had never heard of these (or known the term pavise was applied to shields other than the moveable-cover type) before that video, but it sounds like an interesting option. Looking at his design, it seems fairly similar in function to a katar or pata (or the spike on a dueling shield). I'd say use the cost and weight for adding a spearhead to a weapon (LTC2:15), but give a +1 to damage (as katars and patas have +1 to thr relative to comparable blades) - a small spike is good for thr+2 imp, a full-sized one for thr+3 imp.

[DangerousThing]

Is it possible for the spike to get stuck in the person you impaled with it?

I'm not sure it's worth the problems if it can get stuck.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Is it possible for the spike to get stuck in the person you impaled with it?

I'm not sure it's worth the problems if it can get stuck.

I wouldn't think it would be any more likely than a sword or spear getting stuck - indeed, given the spike is certainly shorter than a sword blade or spear, it may well be less likely to get stuck. I think LTC2 gave a long spike jutting out from the boss a chance to get stuck, but the spiked pavise looks like you'd have a lot more leverage, making it easier to pull back out and avoiding the issue. One built like Shad's model might have a bit of issue, as you don't have as much leverage, but simply extending the raised section all the way to the top (as Shad suggests) should remedy that.

As for Shad's model, I think it's a bit skinnier than a typical DB 1 shield, but has a length more akin to something with DB 3. I'm not certain if that averages out to a full DB 2, or if it should round down to DB 1. I'd be inclined to make a comparable spiked pavise be a bit wider and DB 2. The artwork he showed of nearly just the upraised section and spike might count as DB 1, and putting a spike on his kite shield from earlier in the video would get you a DB 3 spiked pavise.

[Polkageist]

Y'know, I don't think that the rules for shields puts any assumptions on the technicalities of a generic small/medium/large shield's specific shape or grip so no reason to limit the spike's location. Assuming it's not doing anything above and beyond the baseline shield spike rules then the assumption of it being centered is merely that, an assumption.

For the one in the video I'd say DB 2, it's pretty long even if it's skinny so that's covering a lot of body area and people are skinny side-to-side compared to their height. The spike is pretty broad and not necessarily sharp so it could still just be the bluntish/conical spike rule that gives a nice bonus to the crushing damage.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Polkageist

Y'know, I don't think that the rules for shields puts any assumptions on the technicalities of a generic small/medium/large shield's specific shape or grip so no reason to limit the spike's location. Assuming it's not doing anything above and beyond the baseline shield spike rules then the assumption of it being centered is merely that, an assumption.

Several of the mechanics (or, rather, limitations) of the shield spike in LTC2 are dependent on it jutting out from the face (and the boss is the most logical place to put it). The "punching spike" variant shouldn't get stuck (at least not any more often than a katar would), and also shouldn't really risk the spike getting broken when blocking normally. I do wonder if a "shield punch" might compromise defense a bit, as opposed to a shield bash that doesn't - perhaps -1 to DB for the round following a "shield punch" against attacks from the Front (Side would still have full DB)? And no DB is the foe is using a Stop Hit, but that's not going to come up very often.

Originally Posted by Polkageist

For the one in the video I'd say DB 2, it's pretty long even if it's skinny so that's covering a lot of body area and people are skinny side-to-side compared to their height. The spike is pretty broad and not necessarily sharp so it could still just be the bluntish/conical spike rule that gives a nice bonus to the crushing damage.

Yeah, I'd lean more toward DB 2 than DB 1, it just seems a little on the skinny side. I think you're right that Shad's model would deal cr, but a proper spike (as seen in the artwork he based his model off of) would certainly deal imp.

[Polkageist]

The way the long spike is described it sounds almost like a whole spear point jutting out from the boss. That getting bent or broken in a fight kinda makes sense, I'd limit that to the realm of weird crits. A good way to 'succeed while failing' is to break it off in an enemy, preferably a mook for extra comedy.

LT details several one-off shield descriptions that address specific historical shields that deviate a bit from the generic S/M/L stats, so following their lead I would write a shield with an 'edge spike' something like this.

"Shield shape comes to an elongated point, and is reinforced to give it a hard, crushing strike. +1 shield bash damage, or if metal and comes to a sharp point +1 bash damage and convert to impaling. Note that unlike the typical boss-mounted shield spike, this one does NOT break off! Reduce DB by 1 for the following turn after making a shield bash that takes advantage of the spike as the posture and focus of the shield shifts from defense to offense."

Reducing the DB for one turn is a nice trade-off for a more durable spike that's incorporated into the shield geometry. For other shields, a 'shield bash' and 'shield punch' are distinguished as far as I can tell (maybe it is somewhere?) and is left up to however a shield might work. A peltast's crescent shield might be the center boss bash, a viking's shield would be the edge bash, a roman's shield would probably be the bottom edge...

I think that GURPS missed a bit on assuming that all shield bashes are done with the boss in the center of the shield and neglected the edge usage. The copyright is 2010 and I'm not sure how widespread the knowledge of things that HEMA and that gang had rediscovered had become. It's easily enough addressed though with a bit of descriptive backwards justification so that rules don't have to be changed, just a bit on how you're thinking about it.

For example: "Removing the boss reduces bash damage and weight" (paraphrased), which assumes that the boss was doing the bash damage but you can also think of it as the loss of weight and reinforcement by the boss of the shield, being the cause of reduction in damage.

[DanHoward]

Attacking with the shield edge is not considered a shield bash and doesn't use those mechanics.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Attacking with the shield edge is not considered a shield bash and doesn't use those mechanics.

What mechanics does it use? Low Tech Companion 2 has rules for attacking with a sharpened metal shield rim, but I don't recall anything for the general case.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

What mechanics does it use? Low Tech Companion 2 has rules for attacking with a sharpened metal shield rim, but I don't recall anything for the general case.

Indeed. Honestly, the Reach 1 of a shield bash has never sat right with me - unless doing a "shield punch," a shield bash would have at best comparable Reach to a punch (and for shields strapped to your forearm, less than that, absent a comically-extended conical boss or long spike). It seems like a shield bash should generally be Reach C, while a shield punch would be Reach 1 (and reduce DB by 1, except against attacks from the Shield Side). Shield bash damage is largely fine as-is, but a shield punch would probably be thr+1 cr for a round shield and thr+2 cr for one ending in a blunt point. A short spike on the end would be thr+2 imp, while a longer one (comparable to a full-size spearhead) would be thr+3. For a sharpened edge, if swinging the edge you'd generally be at something like thr cut for a round shield, maybe the sw-2 cut from the table with an elongated one. A shield punch that uses the sharpened edge would instead be at thr+1 cut. Essentially, a shield punch is +1 Reach, +1 damage, and -1 DB against frontal attacks. EDIT: Shield punch should also have a higher MinST. Of course, there really should be a MinST for shield bash to start with...

At least, that's what I'm currently leaning toward.