[Lite] wound modifiers

[thrash]

In full disclosure, the experience that sent me down this path was participating as a player in a GURPS demo session run by Jessie Foster of the Arizona MIB at a face-to-face convention in the Before Times. He was meticulous about the rules, as befits the MIB. I was surprised by the extent to which just this one rule slowed down combat, even in a fantasy setting, and started wondering if there was a way to simplify it.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by thrash

A broken beer bottle is treated as a knife (with a 0.5 armor divisor!).

I mentioned the possibility of improvised melee weapons but I also mentioned that people who have guns don't tend to fight with broken beer bottles.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by thrash

I don't accept that one can simply ignore this particular detail: it makes a significant difference in how weapons perform. A 2d+2 pi TL9 auto pistol does less damage to an unarmored target than a 2d pi+ TL8 auto pistol. This is not otherwise obvious from the statistics. Other examples are more egregious.

This is why I suggested simply increasing damage of weapons with higher WM's. Instead of 2d+2 pi vs 2d pi+, you're looking at 2d+2 damage vs 3d damage. For muscle-powered weapons, figure out what you think the "typical" ST wielding it would be, and add damage based on that. For example, if you assume a typical "Lite swordsman" would have ST 12, that means a Thrusting Broadsword would be 1d+1 imp / 1d+3 cut. That would be 2d+2 damage / 3d-1 damage. To get to those from 1d-1 / 1d+2, the sword's statline needs to be something like thr+6 / sw+5.

Originally Posted by thrash

For most purposes, I suppose I could list the wounding modifier in place of the damage type, For example: SMG, .45 2d+1 [x1.5]. That would, at least, give a clear indication of the differences in effectiveness.

This is probably a better idea, although given you're trying to teach them GURPS, I'd suggest retaining the damage type and putting the multiplier after it (also, don't bother with the multiplier when it's x1). So the pistol comparison becomes 2d+2 pi vs 2d pi+<x1.5>, and the Thrusting Broadsword is thr+2 imp<x2> / sw+1 cut<x1.5>.

Originally Posted by thrash

It glosses over the changes to wound modifier for Unliving, Homogeneous, or Diffuse, but in a sf setting that mostly comes up with robots and vehicles.

"Some enemies are particularly resilient to certain damage types - for example, machines and the undead aren't reliant on vital organs, so piercing and impaling deal lesser wounds. If you're curious, you're looking at roughly half* the wounding modifier against complex targets, like most machines and undead, and roughly a fifth* the wounding modifier against more homogenous targets, like a wall." Just tell them this when they're picking their equipment, then remind them once they actually encounter targets with such traits ("Hey, do keep in mind your bullets won't be quite as effective against these robots as they were against the soldiers you just fought").

*Honestly, just treating Unliving as IT:DR x1/2 (Imp/Pi) and Homogenous as IT:DR x1/4 or x1/5 (Imp/Pi) is probably easier than the default rules, where you need to either memorize or lookup the Unliving/Homogenous WM's.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Varyon

This is why I suggested simply increasing damage of weapons with higher WM's.

That would be, in essence, a completely different weapon list, and quite a bit more work than just dealing with the rules as written. It also wouldn't be upward compatible.

Honestly, just treating Unliving as IT:DR x1/2 (Imp/Pi) and Homogenous as IT:DR x1/4 or x1/5 (Imp/Pi) is probably easier than the default rules, where you need to either memorize or lookup the Unliving/Homogenous WM's.

That's a useful observation. The rule really seems to be a sequence: x2, x3/2, x1, x1/2, x1/3, x1/5, x1/10. Unliving shifts all Pi/Imp categories down two places; Homogeneous, three.

In a high/ultra-tech scenario, I would probably put it as x1/3 for Unliving and x1/5 for Homogeneous, since Pi/Pi+ are relatively more common than Pi++ or Pi-. I can live with that as a simplification, rather than (as you say) memorizing the rule or extending the look-up table.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by thrash

That would be, in essence, a completely different weapon list, and quite a bit more work than just dealing with the rules as written. It also wouldn't be upward compatible.

You've got to supply the players with a different weapon list already, if you're trying to get rid of damage type. Still, as I said, the idea of replacing - or better, supplementing - the type with the default modifier (so that you don't need to do any table lookups) is a much better one.

Originally Posted by thrash

That's a useful observation. The rule really seems to be a sequence: x2, x3/2, x1, x1/2, x1/3, x1/5, x1/10. Unliving shifts all Pi/Imp categories down two places; Homogeneous, three.

It follows the Size and Speed/Range Table (SSR) progression, except it skips x0.7 and x1/7, just like Armor Divisor does, because 7 is an icky number people tend not to multiply or divide by very often. Still, x1/3 and x1/5 are certainly going to generally be close enough to the normal values.

[Anthony]

I would note that wound level systems such as Conditional Injury handle wound modifiers as column shifts.

[thalcos]

Originally Posted by thrash

In full disclosure, the experience that sent me down this path was participating as a player in a GURPS demo session run by Jessie Foster of the Arizona MIB at a face-to-face convention in the Before Times. He was meticulous about the rules, as befits the MIB. I was surprised by the extent to which just this one rule slowed down combat, even in a fantasy setting, and started wondering if there was a way to simplify it.

I run a lot of GURPS games for new players at various conventions, and I haven't had this slow me down too much. I was trying to figure out why, since you're right, it IS an added step that other games don't usually have. My conclusion was a combination of:

- I do the math on behalf of the players a lot. "That was a solid impaling hit with your spear, and that means double damage when it pierces his armor". Players who love detail might ask how the system works, but a lot of times players don't ask.

- Conventions usually mean pregenerated characters, and I usually give each character only one weapon. So players only have to remember their weapon's rules.

- I generally run genres that don't require a lot of special damage types, armor divisors, armor that is effective against X but not Y etc.

(All that said, this year when I've been playing GURPS over FoundryVTT, I've been extremely thankful for the auto damage calculation in my Traveller game, because the combination of armor divisors and specialty armor IS a brainburner, and I've been playing GURPS for 30+ years....)

[thrash]

Originally Posted by thalcos

I run a lot of GURPS games for new players at various conventions, and I haven't had this slow me down too much. I was trying to figure out why, since you're right, it IS an added step that other games don't usually have.

I'm usually in the GM's seat myself, so part of it was watching the process from the players' perspective. We were using pre-gens and I'm pretty sure Jessie was doing as you suggest, managing the look-ups for us. It still struck me as a time-consuming extra step, with at least one additional exchange with the GM required. Now multiply that by six players at the table, every round...

[pierseb]

One way to do it is two step.
First, scale up damage. Either by multiplying damage dices before rolling or with a lookup table giving you the proper for various wound multiplier, if you don’t want to mentally handle the multiplication. If damage dice is fix and not subject to bonus, then writing directly scaled up damage on the character sheet is a good option.
Second, also multiply DR by the same wound multiplier before subtracting it from the rolled damage. Again, figuring those values and writing them down on the character sheet. It’s kind of already the case for armor with split DR.

So, if character A attack with a 1D Pi++, either roll 1 D and multiply it by X2 or roll 2D. Let say we roll 2D, double 4. Character A declare an attack doing 8 pi++ damage.
Character B at the receiving end, as a Dr of 3. His character sheet already says his DR against pi++ is 6 (3 x2).
Character B is wounded by 2 ( 8-6=2), the same as (4-3)x2.

Not sure on how hit locations or homogeneous would work...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by pierseb

One way to do it is two step.

Honestly, I think your suggestion would work out to be more complex than the default. I mean, you're talking about every type of armor having at least four different DR values, depending on attack type.