[DF] Looking for Ideas for Knight-Specific Power-Ups

[Kallatari]

I'm trying to find a way to give the Dungeon Fantasy Knight some more template-specific power-ups. While the Knight does have access to a lot of combat-related power-ups, those are mainly shared with all of the warrior-based templates (e.g., barbarian, swashbuckler, holy warrior, etc.). I'm therefore looking for something to make the Knight stand out from the other warriors, and that would only be available to them (not very GURPS-like, true, but very Dungeon Fantasy-like).

It's been pointed out that the main benefit of the Knight is Born War Leader which lets them get high levels of Leadership, Tactics, and Strategy, which can then be used for things like (DF2 p.11) Advice, Encouragement and Observation. However, I've found these are rarely used - at least in my games - because it requires a Concentrate maneuver (well, DF is actually generous and lets you do them with a Do Nothing, but it still uses up your turn) and provides a limited one-turn benefit to an ally. It's usually not worth the effort for the Knight (or at least my players don't seem to think so as they never use them). So, can these be made more useful by creating a useful power-up? Here I was debating something along the lines of a power-up based on Extra Attack, something like: Extra Concentrate (Only for Advice/Encouragement, -20%, Requires speaking (can't do anything else that requires speaking, -10%) [18]. That would make them a free action that a Knight can provide advice/encourage while still fighting by using a different maneuver. Does that seem reasonable? Should both Advice/Encouragement be one trait, or two separate traits?

The other item I thought would go well for the Knight was something related to Taunting; the knight is in heavy armor so it would make sense to serve as the party tank that draws the enemy attacks. However, that requires a roll vs Psychology, which isn't even listed in the Knight's template. There are other skills that can be used for specific foes, but again, they're outside the Knight template. So how can we make this a Knight trait/feature/power-up? Obviously, a 1-point Perk could make it be based off another skill, but what would be the skill? What would be the "special effect" justification for that skill?

Compare this to Threatening (or Blustering as DF2 calls it). That also takes a turn and requires a roll against Intimidation (which is a Knight skill). However, there are multiple variations of Perks that turn this into a free action if a certain condition occurs; e.g., Follow-Through if you down a foe, or That All You Got if you take damage and remain standing. So for a 1-point Perk, threatening is Free Action. Threatening therefore sees quite a bit of use in my games. Could a perk also be used for turning Taunting into a free action? What would be the triggers? I could see something like downing a foe with a "no one can take me down" yell doing something like that.

Any other thoughts?

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

It's been pointed out that the main benefit of the Knight is Born War Leader which lets them get high levels of Leadership, Tactics, and Strategy, which can then be used for things like (DF2 p.11) Advice, Encouragement and Observation.

Born War Leader is a trap--leave those skills to the cleric/bard/wizard/druid, both because of their higher IQ and lower opportunity cost of a Do Nothing maneuver in combat.

The main benefit of the Knight is the incredibly good value you get from 1 point perks like Sacrificial Parry and Shield Wall Training, both boosting your personal defense and allowing allies to safely All Out Attack.

I don't know that Knights are in need of more things to spend points on. ST 20+, Weapon Master (All), Extra Attack 2, Extraordinary Luck, Will 16, HT 16, Speed 9+ Move 11+, and ridiculous levels of skill with melee and ranged weapons will soak up far more points than you will actually have, and if you somehow expected to have a 1000+ point Knight at eventually, you could just start as a half-elf Knight instead to spend another 400ish points on magic.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Any other thoughts?

Pyramid #3/61: Way of the Warrior has "MORE POWER TO DUNGEON WARRIORS!"

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Born War Leader is a trap--leave those skills to the cleric/bard/wizard/druid, both because of their higher IQ and lower opportunity cost of a Do Nothing maneuver in combat.

Note really. It's all about what you take. I've spent a good chunk of my professional writing for GURPS to make working as a team and being a leader something that has real value.

Some useful books.

Pyramid #3/65: Alternate GURPS III has "TEAM UP!" for the more leader-y types.

Pyramid #3/122: All Good Things has "Chevaliers and Commanders" which helps the more leader-y types too.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Thieves has new rules for Tactics that are available to leader-y types that give real concrete benefits for being a leader.

[Tinman]

Also you can look in DF-11 Power-ups p.29

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

The main benefit of the Knight is the incredibly good value you get from 1 point perks like Sacrificial Parry and Shield Wall Training, both boosting your personal defense and allowing allies to safely All Out Attack.

Those are indeed great Perks that uniquely fit the Knight, yes. There's also Armor Mastery and Shield Master. I'm just looking for more like that.

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I don't know that Knights are in need of more things to spend points on. ST 20+, Weapon Master (All), Extra Attack 2, Extraordinary Luck, Will 16, HT 16, Speed 9+ Move 11+, and ridiculous levels of skill with melee and ranged weapons will soak up far more points than you will actually have, and if you somehow expected to have a 1000+ point Knight at eventually, you could just start as a half-elf Knight instead to spend another 400ish points on magic.

You misunderstand, I'm not looking for something to spend points on. This is not about "what do I spend points on next?". My players always have something to do with their points, and I've run games that have reached over 1,000 points. That's therefore not the issue.

This is about finding things that only the Knight can get. Everything you listed above is something the, for example, Swashbuckler can get as well, except the Swashbuckler Weapon Master is limited to a few weapons, but rare is the character who actually fights with a lot of different weapons (it's a nice backup to know multiple weapons should one lose their favorite weapon, but that doesn't necessarily happen often). Also, note that it's the Barbarian that can go over ST 20, not Knight... but Knight can have more HP. EDIT: In other words, why bother selecting the Knight as your template if other templates can duplicate what they do?

Basically, when it comes to fighting, the Barbarian, Martial Artist, Holy Warrior, Knight and Swashbuckler come out more or less the same, with access to roughly the same traits and power-up (but some might only have Extra Attack 1 instead of 2, etc.). The various combat traits in GURPS DF 11 - Power Ups are not Knight-specific and can be used by any warrior. I'm not saying that additional level of Extra Attack isn't useful. I'm merely saying it doesn't belong to the just the Knight.

The Barbarian has Great Rage and rage-related traits (greatly expanded with Denizens). Martial Artist has Chi abilities. Holy Warrior has a list of divine abilities. They all have about at least half-dozen template-restricted traits that makes those templates "unique." I'm using "unique" loosely, as for example the divine abilities are shared with the Cleric. But most of those traits aren't shared with more than one other template. The various warrior-traits and power-ups however are shared between up to five warrior templates.

So what does the Knight have that the other warriors don't have? The Knight's list is very limited. I just want to expand that list.

From the way I read the template, it looks to me that the Knight is also about things related to leadership (a.k.a. Born War Leader). Yes, other templates can also have the skills to be leaders, but other templates - even the non-warrior ones - can also have the skills to fight. The various warrior templates have traits that help in fighting, giving them an edge over the non-warriors. So why not have traits that help in leadership for the Knight? No other template has that, so that could fit nicely into creating a unique Knight niche.

I also think traits related to Taunting would work here as well, as that also seems to fit the Knight theme. I debate between creating some sort of taunting power, or just turning it into a Perk that allows free Taunts each turn.

But happily asking if there's any other ideas as well.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Pyramid #3/61: Way of the Warrior has "MORE POWER TO DUNGEON WARRIORS!"

Pyramid #3/65: Alternate GURPS III has "TEAM UP!" for the more leader-y types.

Pyramid #3/122: All Good Things has "Chevaliers and Commanders" which helps the more leader-y types too.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Thieves has new rules for Tactics that are available to leader-y types that give real concrete benefits for being a leader.

Thank you. Browsing through them, I've spotted a couple items of interest. I will read through them in more detail.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

The various combat traits in GURPS DF 11 - Power Ups are not Knight-specific and can be used by any warrior.

The ones in DF-11 page.29 are Knight specific.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Any other thoughts?

I'd suggest a supernatural, but not magical, ability to compel a foe to attack the Knight. An enhanced version of the existing taunting skills, which as you note, the Knight doesn't have good access to.

Something like:
Knight's Challenge (Mind Control, Based on HT +20%, Hearing Based -20%, Resisted by HT +20%; Single command: Attack the knight only in melee -80%) [12]. A knight can challenge any entity that can hear the knight and force it to engage the knight in hand to hand combat. The knight must Concentrate, shout out his challenge, and win a contest of HT. The knight has a penalty on the contest equal to the normal SSR range modifier for the distance to the target. If the target loses the contest, they must attack the knight and only the knight with melee attacks for the next MoF minutes. The target is not berserk and may use clever tactics, but must attack the knight and will move out of an advantageous position in order to make the attacks. The knight is at an additional -1 penalty per foe already successfully challenged, and anyone who resists a challenge can't be challenged again for 24 hours.

(Most of the special effects are just the standard rules for Mind Control.)

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

My players always have something to do with their points, and I've run games that have reached over 1,000 points.

You mean Dungeon Fantasy games?

I always wanted to know what a 1000+ delver looks like.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

The other item I thought would go well for the Knight was something related to Taunting; the knight is in heavy armor so it would make sense to serve as the party tank that draws the enemy attacks.

Gotta Get Through Me! Cost, TBD

Can only be used if knight is within range of the target. This roll can be combined with a Move maneuver. Knight can roll tactics at a penalty to the difference between his move score and that of his target. If he wins the target must attack the knight before attacking any other target.
Effect lasts for MoS rounds or until the target opens the distance from the knight beyond the knight's melee range.

Not only will this setup encourage heavy armor, but it will also encourage polearms with longer reach.