Everyday Magic; Curse, Bless, Oath, Prayer

[Gef]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

I like Gef's idea of occultism as an 'everyman skill' but also agree with Stormcrow that it can't be a skill if it's going to be a ubiquitous aspect of the setting.

Maybe I was unclear; the idea is that Occultism is for KNOWING about these aspects of your setting. In the real world, gravity is a ubiquitous aspect, but knowing about the laws of motion and how to calculate speed of impact from a fall would be governed by Physics skill. And yeah, there might be folks who never got a degree in Occultism from Magic U, but still know something because they make a default roll.

The part I'm trying to figure out is how to track who knows what. To use the Physics analogy, if I can quote Newton's Laws today, I shouldn't need to prove it again tomorrow. But in game, I'd hate to track who has made what Occultism roles, PC and NPC alike. The best I could come up with was to give the +4 "routine circumstances" bonus to certain things (because they are ubiquitous) so the roll for anyone who has studied Occultism will be pretty reliable and even default gives a good chance.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

I want a setting element where 'gods' are real and every character can participate.

What I'm thinking of is a set of mechanics where superstition; cursing or blessing someone, making a warding sign, in the off-handed way most cultures do has a small but actual effect. Similarly breaking an oath; "I swear on my health..." has some real repercussion.

Path/Book Magic suggests an option that non-mages can cast them at -5, so all you would need is 1pt in the base skill like Ritual Magic.

B218 allows Ritual Magic to default to Religious Ritual, so if you had 1pt in religious ritual you could use Ritual Magic at default enough to learn 1pt in it, and do some magic.

Thaumatology is more accessible in some maigc worlds (defaults to IQ, so anyone can use it until they can buy 1pt) but less in others (defaults to nothing, must be taught)

B216 for getting Religious Ritual it defaults to Theology (same) and B226 allows any form of theology to default to IQ-6, so you could use Theology at default often enough to put 1pt in it, use Religious Ritual enough at default to put 1pt in it, use Ritual Magic at default to put 1pt in it.

At that point you have a default skill in Path of X and that's all you need, no further points necessary.

I actually think Theology (specific) having an IQ default is weird: why would I have inherent knowledge of Norse if I lived on a planet never exposed to Norse?

What I like better is only applying the IQ-6 default to Theology (comparative) because it makes more sense you'd only have inherent knowledge of a religion present on your own world: then if you practiced this enough to get 1pt in it (IQ-2) you can default at Comparative-5 (IQ-7) for those other faiths. Or if you allowed double-defaulting, applying IQ-6-5 is -11.

Theology is not a language or tech skill (B15) so it's not prohibited to non-sapient sentients (IQ1-4) so I'd want big penalties to prevent stuff like IQ 4 housecats (B456) being able to understand Wicca/Christianity/Judaism without needing to take Incompetent (Religion).

You'd think the -6 penalty to IQ would do that (-2) but you can offset most of that with a +5 bonus by 30x Time Spent, so +5-2=3 meaning they could still roll a critical success and discern a theological question somehow.

Maybe Bestial (B124) rules it out, since even if religions themselves might not all be civilized (maybe you let a Bestial learn Theology for a specific thing) the idea of COMPARATIVE theology probably is a civilized art. So if Bestial prohibits Theology (comparative) and we only give the IQ-6 default to that, it prevents the "housecats becoming priests and conducting Ritual Magic" dilemma.

[onetrikpony]

Originally Posted by Gef

I think the reference is to GURPS Powers: Divine Favor, one of the "worked example" PDFs for powers. The idea is, start with Patron (God), and then buy specific prayers as Alternate Abilities. For instance, you may have a low chance, 6 or less, to get God's attention for a random miracle, but when you activate Healing as an Alternate Ability, you can use that reliably. I'm not sure it aligns well with your idea.

Dang. Another supplement I really should read. That's probably what I need for a paladin archetype.

Originally Posted by Gef

The part I'm trying to figure out is how to track who knows what...I'd hate to track who has made what Occultism roles, PC and NPC alike. The best I could come up with was to give the +4 "routine"

This actually works great for me. For my purposes this can be handled as an extension of Cultural Familiarity (B23) Each culture has a set of superstitions and a body of Occult knowledge. I can detail this for each culture in my setting (Theoretically). Cultural familiarity gives access to Occultism: (Culture) at a reduced defaults for certain things. But all cultures have a Generic Curse and a Generic Blessing and Generic Personal Ward-against-evil.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

you should just make simple reaction rolls for the gods, with bonuses or penalties depending on things like how sincere the good will or malice is and how miraculous the effect you're asking for.

Yes. This can become complex. I'd like a less subjective way to measure the sincerity of the malice and the miraculous[ness] of the effect.

I'm thinking of defining it this way, call it; Divine Effect Threshold
Not every curse or blessing thrown at you takes effect but these effect build up over time and 'Karma' or the 'Will of the gods' will eventually affect your fate.

Every character has a Divine Effect Threshold. For sake of discussion say it's 1/2 Will rounded down, (in my setting, for other reasons, it could be an additional Secondary Attribute), so on average the threshold is 5.

Any character can cast a Generic Curse or Generic Blessing this requires a Concentrate Maneuver involving a simple gesture and at least one spoken word. Specifics would be defined by culture. The target must be within line-of-Sight and 100 yards range. No test is required. Occultism may increase or expand effects beyond the Generic version. The result is that one 'point' of Curse or Blessing is added to the targets pool.

When your pool of Curse or Blessing points equals your Divine Effect Threshold you suffer or benefit from the effects of Divine Will on your fate; (good or bad Karma if you like). On your next Success roll roll twice. If you've met the threshold for Curse take the lower result. If you've met the threshold for Blessing take the higher result.

Any character can use points of Blessing to ward off evil for a short time. Casting a 'u]Personal Ward Against Evil[/u] requires a concentrate maneuver, a simple gesture and at least one spoken word. Again, the formula is specific to your culture but the process is common to all cultures. No test is required but each time you cast the ward you sacrifice one point of Blessing from your pool. In return Curses directed at you are deflected for the next 1/2 hour (or amount of time the GM determines appropriate)

I appreciate Plane's comment. I've been tossing around the idea that divine magic will be Book (Effect Shaping) and hermetic or arcane magic would be Book (energy accumulating). Haven't had a chance to explore how the two would mix.

Thanks for all the comments

[Gef]

So you try your hand at stand-up down at the comedy club on amateur night. You tell a stinker, and a hundred people skip booing and make the sign of cursing instead. You die. Talk about a social credit score in the red.

I suggest you need a limit on how fast this karma can accumulate. Otherwise warfare consists of every soldier cursing the other side's captain. Also consider that if any random joe can make a sign of blessing, priests are gonna need a lot better PR.

You've gotta keep effect levels manageable, so I'd say blessed and very blessed, cursed and very cursed, and neutral. What's the effect of walking around with each category? Plus or minus 1 or 2 to all rolls, or to some rolls, or maybe one or two rerolls like Luck and take the best (or the worst for cursed)?

I kind of like the idea of measuring time in scenes for this. Obviously, it's not exact, but you can recognize a scene change when it happens. Let the benefit or penalty apply once per scene, otherwise I think it'll be a headache.

[onetrikpony]

Originally Posted by Gef

I suggest you need a limit on how fast this karma can accumulate.

Yes... That becomes cumbersome. I don't like the idea of rolling twice for the next 100 success tests if 500 people throw a curse or a blessing.

Refreshing the pool per scene works but I was kind of enjoying the idea of keeping a career tally. :\ I'll have to think about it.

Thanks

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Plane

I actually think Theology (specific) having an IQ default is weird: why would I have inherent knowledge of Norse if I lived on a planet never exposed to Norse?

B175 takes care of it (if I understood you rightly):

Who Gets a Default?
Only individuals from a society where a skill is known may attempt a default roll against that skill. For instance, the default for Scuba skill assumes you are from a world where scuba gear exists and where most people would have some idea – if only from TV – of how to use it. A medieval knight transported to the 21st century would not get a default roll to use scuba gear the first time he saw it!

Originally Posted by Plane

Theology is not a language or tech skill (B15) so it's not prohibited to non-sapient sentients (IQ1-4) so I'd want big penalties to prevent stuff like IQ 4 housecats (B456) being able to understand Wicca/Christianity/Judaism without needing to take Incompetent (Religion).

You'd think the -6 penalty to IQ would do that (-2) but you can offset most of that with a +5 bonus by 30x Time Spent, so +5-2=3 meaning they could still roll a critical success and discern a theological question somehow.

Maybe Bestial (B124) rules it out, since even if religions themselves might not all be civilized (maybe you let a Bestial learn Theology for a specific thing) the idea of COMPARATIVE theology probably is a civilized art. So if Bestial prohibits Theology (comparative) and we only give the IQ-6 default to that, it prevents the "housecats becoming priests and conducting Ritual Magic" dilemma.

Why shouldn't they? Yes, animals working out something very abstruse by a lot of Time Spent is unreasonable, but the same applies to, say, Physics, unless I misunderstood something you said, and the game seems to handle that all right with nothing but common sense. If, on the other hand, the game was in a setting where a God or gods existed and a human can learn to make a sign to invoke their blessing, that's a matter of objective fact and not too complicated a one, and I'd expect that there was an outside chance of the human's cat working it out too, assuming the sign didn't require fingers. Besides, the OP's description sounds a rather traditional fairy-tale notion, and clever animals go with that very well.

By the way, domestic animals don't have Bestial, it seems to function more or less as lack of "Cultural Familiarity (hoomins)".

[dcarson]

Originally Posted by Inky

If, on the other hand, the game was in a setting where a God or gods existed and a human can learn to make a sign to invoke their blessing, that's a matter of objective fact and not too complicated a one, and I'd expect that there was an outside chance of the human's cat working it out too, assuming the sign didn't require fingers. Besides, the OP's description sounds a rather traditional fairy-tale notion, and clever animals go with that very well.

I give you Hank http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=153478

[Inky]

Thanks. I love it.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Gef

Hi 1TP, this old post gets near what you're asking: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=7721

Huh. Did that ever get posted to the GURPS wiki? I looked, but I'm not seeing it under any of the search terms I tried.