Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

[Irish Wolf]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

In one of the Star Trek novels Vulcan is mentioned to have a system like this: Tri-cameral legislature, two houses required to pass laws but one house that acts only to rescind laws.

Diane Duane and I both stole that from Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. That was the Professor's proposal for the Lunar legislature (they decided to go with a more traditional format).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I thought a corporation was any organization that can be treated as a person by a legal fiction and was capable of owning property, sueing, being sued, making contracts; it probably cannot commit felony as felony involves non-monetary penalties(RICO prosecutes individuals).

That legal fiction certainly is part of the American definition, and to some degree of European ones. But I've seen anthropologists use the word for organizations with continuing existence in societies that don't have such a fiction. This could be viewed as a generalization of the American concept, I suppose.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Likewise rent can have all sorts of weird connotations. In one place on the border it included the duty to sound a horn if the Scots are coming. In another place it included the obligation to marry the landlord's daughter(to provide for her naturally, though moderns would prefer the same effect done with rather less baggage to say the least).

Isn't that what was called a serjeanty? A feudal grant of land for service which is neither servile nor knightly? I recall examples of serjeants who were landed in return for duties as diverse as supplying a castle with peat and holding the king's head whilst he travelled by sea (presumably the king who granted the fee had issues with seasickness). And then there was Roland the Farter...

Originally Posted by whswhs

That legal fiction certainly is part of the American definition, and to some degree of European ones. But I've seen anthropologists use the word for organizations with continuing existence in societies that don't have such a fiction. This could be viewed as a generalization of the American concept, I suppose.

I too understood that a Corporation was a person in law, but that may be a specific definition for a specific context.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I too understood that a Corporation was a person in law, but that may be a specific definition for a specific context.

Well, in the United States and the United Kingdom that seems to be true. Though it's mainly a way of conceptualizing various legal assumptions: That a corporation exists perpetually, that it's not destroyed when one of the original founders withdraws, that it can own property and enter into contracts, and that its shareholders are not legally liable for its actions, among others.

[jason taylor]

One idea Brownstown mentions is "Right of Piscary", which is about fishing rights.

Peter Ackroyd notes something similar in his book about the Thames. Fish traps would keep getting built until someone brought suit that it was impeding the waterflow or taking to much fish or whatever. Then several traps would be torn down and licensing procedures firmed up. Then people would start building traps again including some which were clearly adulterine. And so on around the cycle.

Another interesting thing from Ackroyd's book is the origin of "Flotsam and Jetsam." Flotsam is undifferentiated litter in the water, jetsam was actually tossed overboard.

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Another interesting thing from Ackroyd's book is the origin of "Flotsam and Jetsam." Flotsam is undifferentiated litter in the water, jetsam was actually tossed overboard.

The specific distinction, which is still technically present in maritime law, is that jetsam (which may but need not be floating) is still the property of its original owner, while flotsam (which must be floating) may be claimed by the finder. (There's obviously a third category, material lost overboard that is not floating. "Lagan" refers to this when there's a buoy attached to it, which serves as a claim. Otherwise it counts as derelict, and without hope of recovery, because the law predates diving.)

(I suspect that somewhere in the back of this is an incentive to let captains cut cargo loose when a ship is in danger of foundering.)

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by RogerBW

The specific distinction, which is still technically present in maritime law, is that jetsam (which may but need not be floating) is still the property of its original owner, while flotsam (which must be floating) may be claimed by the finder. (There's obviously a third category, material lost overboard that is not floating. "Lagan" refers to this when there's a buoy attached to it, which serves as a claim. Otherwise it counts as derelict, and without hope of recovery, because the law predates diving.)

(I suspect that somewhere in the back of this is an incentive to let captains cut cargo loose when a ship is in danger of foundering.)

Does anyone tow cargo in a floating sack or a secondary barge? Some of that would come loose from time to time.

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Does anyone tow cargo in a floating sack or a secondary barge? Some of that would come loose from time to time.

"Flexible barge" or more specifically "dracone barge" are the key phrases here. It's been tried occasionally, but mostly right now it seems to be lots of promises and investment opportunities.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by RogerBW

. . . mostly right now it seems to be lots of promises and investment opportunities.

Investors are probably shy of backing an oil transport technology that can spill its entire contents so easily.

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Investors are probably shy of backing an oil transport technology that can spill its entire contents so easily.

Actually, one of the few things they do seem to get used for is oil spills: collect the spill in booms, bring in a small boat with a big pump on it, then fill dracones with watery oil and get them towed away rather than trying to bring a great big tanker on-site. Of course, at that point you're starting with an oil spill…

ObModeratelyOnTopic: floating oil is clearly flotsam.