Skill for building musical instrument?

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Engineer (Musical Instrument) to design and spec an instrument. This includes a knowledge of acoustics (even if just anecdotal) and how the components fit together to make desired sounds. Things like materials and size and shape. Few will have or need this though.

...

Mechanic (Musical Instruments) (defaults to Machinist and Engineer) to learn how to properly tune and repair instruments. Though tuning should also be covered by the appropriate Musical Instrument skill. But this is for the guy who can tune a piano but not play one well.

I still say it should be "Musical Instrument: $Type" rather than "Musical Instruments" as a whole, given the really broad range of instrument types out there. I could see a guitar- or violin-maker possibly coming up with a zither, but I wouldn't ask one to make a trombone, trumpet, or sax due to the very different means of making sounds, much less a drum or cymbal.

Other than that, I like the breakdown.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I still say it should be "Musical Instrument: $Type" rather than "Musical Instruments" as a whole, given the really broad range of instrument types out there. I could see a guitar- or violin-maker possibly coming up with a zither, but I wouldn't ask one to make a trombone, trumpet, or sax due to the very different means of making sounds, much less a drum or cymbal.

Other than that, I like the breakdown.

Thank you.
I think this is just a case where some GURPS skills are too broad. The case for say Wind or Stringed instruments is harder to make when you have Small Arms, automobiles, or especially spaceships for comparison.
Though as a player I certainly wouldn't be upset at a GM narrowing it down.

What types should it be?
Stringed
Wind (wood and brass)
Percussion

I think the specialties listed under Musical Instrument are too narrow for the design/repair part of the triad.
I really would love a Power-Ups skill book that addresses this.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If you do want to model that sort of hyper-specialized knowledge, then that would be an additional skill on top of the base skills, not in replacement of it -- Carpentry plus Advanced Carpentry (Stringed Instruments) and Advanced Carpentry (Cabinetry). The violin maker isn't as helpless when faced with an unusual need to make a cabinet as (say) I would be, so saying "you don't have the right skill, default to IQ-4" isn't right. With the existing rules structure, we're talking really just talking specialties just to avoid creating a long list of cross-defaults required between This Professional Skill and That Professional Skill, but not Yonder Professional Skill -- and likely not mandatory specialties.

I don't agree with this; I don't think it's even a valid concern. Yes, there are lots and lots of GURPS skills that are fairly broadly defined, and that exist in a fixed number and are expanded only after careful scrutiny by Kromm. But there are several skills, or skill classes, that aren't that way: Expert, Games, Hobby, Professional, and Sports (and perhaps others I've forgotten). There's really no barrier in the rules to creating as many of those as you want, and figuring out for yourself what they default to and what, if anything, defaults to them. They're intended to represent the myriad occupations of ordinary people whose abilities don't have any special adventuring applications—for example, woodwind instrument maker, piano tuner, barber, or bartender. It does no harm if they exist in potentially unlimited numbers, or if no two GMs have the same ones or give them the same rules and mechanics. They're there to give a nod to the complex texture of everyday life in an industrial society, and to avoid saying either "No, you can't sanitize that telephone, there's no skill for that" or "If you want to sanitize that telephone, roll vs. Hazardous Materials (Chemical) at +4." And it seems to me that making musical instruments fits that slot.

And if you want to know whether Carpentry, or Artist (Woodworking), or Machinist defaults to Professional Skill (Violin Maker)—make it up! It isn't as if anyone was going to come into your campaign and say you're wrong, or be able to prove it if they do.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I think the specialties listed under Musical Instrument are too narrow for the design/repair part of the triad.

I'd say use the broad categories—aerophone, chordophone, idiophone, keyboard, and membranophone—plus electrophone after around 1900.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'd say use the broad categories—aerophone, chordophone, idiophone, keyboard, and membranophone—plus electrophone after around 1900.

I agree with this idea. (I was looking up the various types when you posted, so #metoo.)

[Cursed_Lich]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'd say use the broad categories—aerophone, chordophone, idiophone, keyboard, and membranophone—plus electrophone after around 1900.

A Professional skill with these specializations is what I think might be realistic enough without being using 3~5 different skills to build a single type of instrument. Although the argument with small arms and spacecrafts made me think about to just use luthier and deal with it. As an medieval fantastic world, don't know how much realism will be used but this has been on my mind for some time now.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If you do want to model that sort of hyper-specialized knowledge, then that would be an additional skill on top of the base skills, not in replacement of it -- Carpentry plus Advanced Carpentry (Stringed Instruments) and Advanced Carpentry (Cabinetry).

One approach to doing that within the RAW I sometimes use is Unique Techniques. Don't think a Carpenter has a chance of making a violin? Call Violin-Making a unique technique of Carpentry. Now you have to spend a point on the Unique Technique perk to attempt it at all, the GM can set the default at anything appropriate so even skilled carpenters can't automatically become expert violin-makers with 200 hours of training. And yet as a technique it's not horribly expensive to buy it up to full skill (or potentially beyond) like an entirely separate skill would be, and because it is a technique Violin-maker-guy automatically has at least some level of competence with any other carpentry task that *isn't* weird enough to be a Unique Technique.

[jason taylor]

What would Stradivarius rate?

[johndallman]

A small reality check. My father definitely had points in playing fretted instruments, mostly mandolin and guitar. Like most musicians, he had a very strong familiarity with the handling, size and weight of instruments. He wanted a cittern - a type of lute - and could not find one for sale at a reasonable price, but there were kits available.

The kit he got came with all the metal parts pre-made, and the wood cut, but not sanded. He definitely had his default in Carpentry, maybe a bit of Dabbler, but no more than that. Assembling it involved a lot of sanding, steaming and bending wood into shape, making jigs, and gluing. There was simple drilling to screw the metal parts on. He took substantial extra time om this, and ended up with a working instrument that sounded pretty good.

There was no design work, or materials selection involved, just finishing parts and assembly. This would be apprentice work in a luthier's business, and it is not that hard.

The highly skilled parts at low TLs seem to be the design work, the materials selection, and making the varnish. Cutting the parts is less skilled, but still significant, because wood is always a bit different, and I suspect a professional luthier would buy in the metalwork.

[Pursuivant]

Remember that Carpentry mostly covers frame carpentry. Fine woodworking uses Artist (Woodworking).

Based on the skill set of a friend who dabbled in making wooden musical instruments (mostly table harps), I'd suggest that making musical instruments is a Hard Technique based on the dominant material used to make the instrument, which defaults to the relevant skill at -4. At least one musical skill (e.g., musical composition or singing) is a prerequisite.

For example, roll vs. Machinist -4 to create a valved trumpet, or Artist (Woodworking) -4 to create a lute or violin.

But, certain instruments are easier than others. Anything with a relatively solid frame - like a lap harp or a solid-bodied guitar - is easier to make than an instrument where the body of the instrument must act to amplify or modify the sounds produced.

I also think that it's entirely reasonable to have a Professional Skill dedicated to just making a certain sort of instrument. For simplicity, just give Antonio Stradivari PS (Violin & Cello Making) and Les Paul PS (Electric Guitar Making).