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Old 08-03-2018, 05:34 PM   #601
maximara
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Default Re: Five Earths, All in a Row

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Originally Posted by warellis View Post
I always associated pulp with more the mystery men/dashing adventurer type era and less into the superhero era I guess.
The first mystery men supers appeared in the pulps.

A millionaire playboy dresses up in a outfit to frighten criminals. But this isn't Batman (1939) but a now largely forgotten pulp super called The Spider (1933). Heck, The Shadow (1929) fits the mystery men supers mold.

And before those two was Zorro (1919). Pulp heroes has a good sampling of the characters that appeared in pulps. A handful lasted into the TV era.

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EDIT: I'm wondering something, since all the magic in-setting is based on psi-stuff, does that mean none mana isn't being used?
I know some people have psi based power but that doesn't mean all "magic" is psi based. Fantasy Earth certainly has to have mana as well as sanctity per it taking crib notes from Roma Arcana

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Well for Infinite Worlds, wouldn't there be the possibility it might get things wrong enough? Like it's a "based on a true story" sort of thing almost?
The problem there is Infinite Worlds is "the" default version of Infinity and Interworld. For things to be different enough to where most of what is described in that work is wrong would involve versions of Infinity and Interworld that are effectively unrecognizable.

Being "close" is enough to get the Myth Parallel category and having a reality where your reality is a Myth Parallel is going to be unsettling in the extreme.
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Old 08-03-2018, 06:39 PM   #602
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OK, I made a few small edits, like correcting the mana level of Fantasy Earth (no mana - all native 'magic' on all these worlds is psi-based, which I'm not sure the infobox has an entry or notation for, but some of them have some mana anyway, that isn't used natively).

I think I posted infoboxes for each of the Five Earths in this thread somewhere, though they may be out of date.
The problem there is that sanctity plays a role in these spells which if they are psi powers makes no sense. Psi is no more effected by sanctity then it is by mana.

Mana level gives a quick baseline to how well (or even if) "default" magic can work in particular area. Making all magic psi based effectively destroys the relevance of the reality's mana level to being able to use magic

The whole set up give the impression of the White Knight in Through the Looking Glass who "was thinking of a plan To dye one’s whiskers green, And always use so large a fan That they could not be seen." ie what's the point?
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Old 08-04-2018, 01:47 PM   #603
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The problem there is that sanctity plays a role in these spells which if they are psi powers makes no sense. Psi is no more effected by sanctity then it is by mana.
The psi includes astral entities (which is what the spirits are, and is where most of the 'magic' comes from: getting astral entities with the right powers to do the work for you), and 'sanctity' was only used because it was a term that already existed in GURPS that was a very close fit for what it was supposed to be doing. Basically, the Sanctity level varies based on what spirit or spirits are most available or easiest to invoke in that area - a forest would be normal or high sanctity for various types of nature spirits, but usually low or very low sanctity for technology spirits; an aircraft carrier at sea would be normal or better sanctity for Sea spirits, Sky/Air spirits, Metal spirits, and Technology spirits, but would be pretty low for Earth or Forest spirits (though a WWII carrier with a wooden deck could work for the latter); an iron mine would be good for Earth and Metal spirits, but usually not so great for Forest or Air spirits.
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Old 08-04-2018, 02:27 PM   #604
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The psi includes astral entities (which is what the spirits are, and is where most of the 'magic' comes from: getting astral entities with the right powers to do the work for you), and 'sanctity' was only used because it was a term that already existed in GURPS that was a very close fit for what it was supposed to be doing.
This all sounds very similar to how mana based magic works in Roma Arcana.

"The mana level is normal, except inside city limits, where it is low. Casting spells in Roma Arcana takes 10 times as long as defined in the spell description; the caster must attract the attention of a god or spirit and make his wishes known." (Fantasy 195)

"In general, Roman sorcery derives power from mana (called numen in Latin), but mana consists of spirits." (Fantasy 207)

As for how and why Mana and Sanctity interact the way they do there is this: "Many spirits are servants of various gods and not available to run errands for sorcerers. High-mana places often have locations in the wilderness, far away from temples and cults, where many free spirits still exist. The ground within a city’s pomoerium is a low-mana area. Magic in Roma Arcana is either ritual magic, based on an underlying skill, or clerical magic, granted by a god or powerful spirit (see p. B242)." (Fantasy 207)

TL;DR: In Roma Arcana Mana (free) spirits = mana; deities and their servant spirits = sanctity and the two are in opposition to each other. As the Roman Empire expands its influence with the proper reverence to the deities mana level falls as sanctity rises. Isis is the noted exception to this.

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Basically, the Sanctity level varies based on what spirit or spirits are most available or easiest to invoke in that area - a forest would be normal or high sanctity for various types of nature spirits, but usually low or very low sanctity for technology spirits; an aircraft carrier at sea would be normal or better sanctity for Sea spirits, Sky/Air spirits, Metal spirits, and Technology spirits, but would be pretty low for Earth or Forest spirits (though a WWII carrier with a wooden deck could work for the latter); an iron mine would be good for Earth and Metal spirits, but usually not so great for Forest or Air spirits.
This is all handled via Aspected Mana:
"A region may be especially favorable, or aspected, to one specific kind of magic. A spring might have high mana for healing spells, or a forest glade might have very high mana for plant magic." Fantasy 43

"The ambient mana level in a region need not be the same for every college of magic. Mana that varies by college is said to be “aspected to” the colleges that enjoy higher effective mana and “aspected against” those that experience lower effective mana." Thaumatology 67

So, a natural forest would be normal or high aspected mana for plant (and perhaps earth) related spells, but usually low or very low mana for technology (and perhaps fire) magic. Interestingly a forest that is a product of technology (irrigation or under a dome) would be normal or high aspected to technology as well.

The aircraft carrier at sea would be in what was a normal or better aspected mana area for Air and Water spells (the sea; Poseidon may be god of the sea but his influence is focused on his temples which are on land so there are plenty of free spirits to call on) and a mobile normal or better aspected mana area for Metal and Technology spells. On a side note forest aspected mana needs living trees - a lot of cut wood will not work and may have the opposite effect.

TL;DR: don't reinvent the wheel when aspected mana can serve the same function.

Last edited by maximara; 08-04-2018 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 08-04-2018, 03:05 PM   #605
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There are no native mana users in this setting. Full stop. The only reason I included mana levels at all is because I thought someone might ask for purposes of running an Infinite Worlds game.

The basic conceit of the setting is that all the weirdness comes from a single source, and the source I chose was psi. That's why people have powers, it's how the setting's magic works, and it's why Clockpunk, Steampunk, and Dieselpunk technology works as well as it does. I have not gotten significant complaints (or perhaps any complains) about doing that in the nearly six years that this thread has existed, and I'm not going to retcon something that fundamental to the setting just because one otherwise very helpful person is annoyed by a decision that I made when I started work on this project.
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Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted.
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Old 08-04-2018, 03:48 PM   #606
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There are no native mana users in this setting. Full stop.
So Isis is giving out psi based powers rather then giving her priests magery and knowledge on how to use it. That is weird but perhaps she has a different criteria on what magic is then her Roma Arcana counterpart does.

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There are no native mana users in this setting. Full stop. The only reason I included mana levels at all is because I thought someone might ask for purposes of running an Infinite Worlds game.
I think that mana levels became less important once Thaumatology came out as Magery (Sanctity Replaces Mana +-0%) became an option.

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I have not gotten significant complaints (or perhaps any complains) about doing that in the nearly six years that this thread has existed, and I'm not going to retcon something that fundamental to the setting just because one otherwise very helpful person is annoyed by a decision that I made when I started work on this project.
It just seems to be such a kludgy way to do it compared to aspected mana.

Last edited by maximara; 08-04-2018 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 08-04-2018, 03:52 PM   #607
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There are no native mana users in this setting. Full stop. The only reason I included mana levels at all is because I thought someone might ask for purposes of running an Infinite Worlds game.

The basic conceit of the setting is that all the weirdness comes from a single source, and the source I chose was psi. That's why people have powers, it's how the setting's magic works, and it's why Clockpunk, Steampunk, and Dieselpunk technology works as well as it does. I have not gotten significant complaints (or perhaps any complains) about doing that in the nearly six years that this thread has existed, and I'm not going to retcon something that fundamental to the setting just because one otherwise very helpful person is annoyed by a decision that I made when I started work on this project.
I suspect a possible reason you may not have gotten complaints was because no one really was focusing on the mechanics of how the story played, from a GURPS tabletop roleplaying perspective, and were more interested in the stories and timeline stuff.

I mean prior to maximara, was anyone really looking at this with GURPS rules and such in mind?

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Old 08-04-2018, 05:39 PM   #608
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I suspect a possible reason you may not have gotten complaints was because no one really was focusing on the mechanics of how the story played, from a GURPS tabletop roleplaying perspective, and were more interested in the stories and timeline stuff.
Right. In fact it wasn't until I started correlating the worlds for the gurps wiki that I realized that something was off. Once I noticed that then I went to the page with the magic system and found how it differed from GURPS default mana based system.

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I mean prior to maximara, was anyone really looking at this with GURPS rules and such in mind?
Based on what I have seen via my binge reading no one really looked that hard into the mechanics being presented.

I have a KiSS mentality regarding things and aspected mana effectively does the same thing as this magic is Psi.

Heck Powers states "In some settings, “magic” and “psi” both tap the same energies, in one case by study and formal disciplines, in the other by raw talent and willpower. (...) Psi might even use the standard GURPS spell system. (“Mana levels” would probably not vary much in such a setting, although some areas might be more “psi-friendly” than others.) The most important practical effect is that “magic” and “psi” could always interact directly, able to detect, negate, and even enhance each other." Powers 181

This is similar to something I wrote up back when 3e was around:

All intelligent beings have some degree of internal power which is expressed in many ways one of the more obvious ones being Psionics. The actions a person does over his lifetime results in some of this internal power being left behind in the area; this left behind power is mana. The more people stay in an area and the longer they stay the higher the mana will be. Magery allows one to tap into this left behind "Psionic" power.

Clerics tap into a different form of magic which is given to them by their deity and therefore is unrelated to the Psionic-magery connections. In any case magic will still be fickle: the mage or cleric is tapping into power that is external rather than internal and therefor "alien".

Mana is like water; it flows from a high state to a low one. Hence mana can flow into an area in which an intelligent being has never lived. This also means that a difference of more than one mana level of two neighboring areas will not last. So trying to create a no mana area in anything but a low mana area is futile - the mana level will "fill up" usually within a year.

This flow also applies to the dimensions as well; mana flows to the dimension of less mana. So setting up a doorway to the Astral plane can eventually result in your local mana level dropping to Low if it is used often enough. Conversely doorways to higher mana realms can increase local mana level. The problem is what else might come through such doorways.

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GURPS Fantasy Chapter 9 (Roma Arcana, pp 195-232) will be a little helpful, here. Arthur is sufficiently faithful to the Romano-British pantheon that all of Britannia, Armorica, and Italia are normal sanctity again, his Legions collectively have Higher Purpose, and so forth. Most of Gallia doesn't quite have the same benefits, though.
Note that the points about free spirits = mana I raised come straight from the Roma Arcana setting so it is kind of awkward to read that and then later find out Fantasy Earth is no mana when Roma Arcana is normal mana (low in cities), spells require Pacts with local spirits.

It gives a whole (ha ha) kludgy round peg in square hole feel.

Last edited by maximara; 08-04-2018 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 08-08-2018, 03:38 PM   #609
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Dsp-Germans are asking themselves a question

(With thanks to tshiggins for editorial work.)

A major difference between Germany in WWII(1) and WWII(2) in the summer of 1942 is a great increase in the number of Nazis and other Germans who are asking themselves 'What happens if we lose the war?' (or for the wiser ones 'What happens when we lose the war?') and in many cases, making plans for that event. These plans tend to fall into a few general categories, with some overlap:

1: Surrender honourably, knowing that they weren't involved in any war crimes. (Most of them are actually right about that, as the majority of German soldiers and civilians did not participate in those atrocities, and often were unaware of the worst of it. Others are quite delusional, and will be surprised when they get sent to prison, or a firing squad.)

2: Surrender and justify any actions that the Allies may want to try them for as 'necessary actions for the good of the German Nation' (and/or 'the Aryan Race,' and/or 'the advancement of SCIENCE!'). (Also pretty deluded, and many will be even more surprised, though some of the mad scientists and such will get Paperclipped (those with useful abilities that are rare or seemingly unique), if the Israeli SpecOps troops and the irregulars they trained don't kill them first. Even then, being allowed to live and continue their work in very secure confinement, generally without sophont test subjects, will be the best the real monsters can expect.)

3: Surrender and claim 'It wasn't my fault, I had to follow orders or I'd be shot!' (or otherwise try to shift the blame onto someone of a higher rank, who is often conveniently dead, and thus unable to contradict them). (Some of them flat out won't believe the Allied propaganda that this defence will not be accepted, because obviously you want soldiers and civilian support personnel to obey orders without question. Others are planning to make deals or otherwise believe that they have sufficient mitigating circumstances that they'll be able to get out with minimal jail time; a few of these may be right.)

4: Form a resistance cell and continue the fight. (Mostly hard-core Nazis in this category, some rather deluded, and others simply stubborn and expecting a firing squad anyway. There are some SS, Waffen-SS, and Hitlerjugend units (including some from the League of German Girls) among those being specifically trained for this, though the training is justified with various excuses, so as not to alarm anyone who might find it ideologically inappropriate.)

5: Run off and hide somewhere. (This is a mix between those who are overlapping with '4,' and plan to go off somewhere to build up forces and take revenge - so, pretty deluded - and those who just want to live a peaceful life somewhere with their ill-gotten gains, and not get shot by angry Jews; the latter also includes some who haven't committed war crimes, and just want to avoid being harassed. Some in the 'build up and take revenge' group have already been approached by Cytherean agents, so they are at least less deluded than those with that plan in our history; most of the men are still rather deluded as to what sort of positions they'd have in Cytherean society, though.)
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:17 PM   #610
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As difficult as WWII is for the people of Dp-Earth, the fact is that it'll wind up quite truncated, with far lower loss of life, than Ip-Earth's WWII. It'll also come to an end.

That means, in a lot of ways, the aftermath of that war will prove far, far more difficult and harrowing for the people of Dp-Earth. After all, every single person on that world will have to contend with an advanced world that can, in almost every case, point out any and all flaws in their world-views.

The Germans might not even get the worst of it, really. Stalin and Tojo are both in for really bad times, because they have to face the facts that the parallel history of another world almost certainly discredits everything they believe; everything they are.

In the United Kingdom, Parliament and Downing Street may have begun to face some ugly truths about the future of the British Empire, as well, and both Apartheid South Africa and the states of the Old South in the U.S.A. may come entirely unhinged. The Dixiecrats and other Segregationists know they face a bleak future of withering scorn, and the Obama administration has (quietly) already begun to take steps to hamstring them.

They have to fear that a curb-stomping may commence, as soon as the greater and more immediate threat of NAZI Germany is dealt with.

Moreover, there's no way to avoid any of it. The decision of the Ip-USA to aid the Seleneans gives them a firm ally and a firm foothold on Dp-Earth's Luna that, by the end of the war, no one will have the ability to dislodge them from.

In the Dp-Earth world, the NAZIs won't have moonbases -- the Americans will, and they'll enjoy the whole-hearted support of the natives.

The largest group that may come out of it better off are the Chinese. If they're able to cobble together enough of a coalition to beat Mao, and find enough competent leaders to build a viable government, they could wind up a much more free and wealthy society. Those are some long, long odds, though.

Worst of all, for the reactionaries and extremists of all sorts, is that (unlike WWII), it will never end. It'll never be over. The presence of Ip-Earth will throw Dp-Earth into an upheaval that will last at least two, and probably three, generations.

Over on Sp-Earth, it'll be almost as bad. The Southern Planters will almost certainly face a future of failure, ruin, and incandescent fury focused completely on them.

By comparison, almost everybody else on that world has time -- time to adapt, to figure out what to do. For slave-owning Brazil, that time will be pretty short, too, but not nearly as short as it is for the Sp-USA's Old South.

For the British Empire, which is approaching its zenith, the appearance of Ip-Earth -- while certainly troubling -- offers a rare opportunity to learn. If they pay attention to the historians of England on Ip-Earth, they might just save much more of the Empire than they otherwise would.
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