[GURPS concepts] Parry and Block

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

If a giant picked up a kite shield by a short edge and swung it like a blade, could he Block with it?

Edit: I just read the box on MA122 wherein the waters are muddied by defining certain 'Parries' as actions that are clearly dodges. It seems like this might be an area of deeply dissatisfying confusion in the rules.

Only when discussing it like this. When I play GURPS, the players just use parry, dodge, and block correctly according to GURPS. Unfortunately this group is not representative of GURPS players. We're the rules geeks who are willing to split hairs and pick nits at the drop of a hat.

[gilbertocarlos]

One of the main reasons is simplicity, GURPS favors the sword and board guy(not as much today, but GURPS 3e, as well as Man to Man did much more), as such, most warriors would use this combination, and would have a shield defense and a sword defense, one of each only in the originals.
Now, imagine the situation where the defenses were the choices are "Block: with sword" and "Block: with shield".
Situation 1:
Player: I block.
GM: Ok, roll.
Player: 12, I passed.
GM: No, you didn't, your shield defense is 11.
Player: Well, I blocked with the sword.
(With parry and block, we don't have this confusion or rules lawiering)

Situation 2:
Player: I block with my shield.
GM: Ok, roll. WAIT, what's your block value with the shield?
Player: Don't know, I have 2 blocks in my character sheet, which one is for the sword and which one is the shield?
GM: The top one is with the sword.
Player: Ok, I choose the bottom one, the shield.
GM: Ok, roll.
(With parry and block, we don't have this confusion, you already know with is with).

Situation 3:
Player: I block the arrow.
GM: Ok, roll
Player: I passed.
GM: Ok, but another one gonna hit you.
Player: Now I block with my shield.
GM: Wait, you can't block arrows with your sword, shields and weapons have entirely different rules for blocking.
Player: Then why do they have the same name?

Originally Posted by Polydamas

You also cannot use the Cross Parry option with a Shield or Buckler weapon, even though it is the standard way of parrying in some sword-and-buckler styles.

Who said that? that would mean that on single combat a dagger or similar secondary weapon would be better than a shield.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Who said that? that would mean that on single combat a dagger or similar secondary weapon would be better than a shield.

The authors of GURPS Martial Arts did. My copy is in another country, but look closely and you will see that shields and cloaks cannot participate.

In Sabaron's arena game (single combat with variable kit and terrain and most realistic optional rules mandatory) two swords, rapier and dagger, and long two-handed weapons were the best choices both offensively and defensively (the Judo master who parried without contact and Slipped then applied Arm Lock-25 was also very dangerous). A fighter with an Iron Large Shield was reasonably successful by breaking people's weapons, and a fighter with a Cavalry Saber and Light Small Shield did reasonably well against non-optimized opponents.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Who said that? that would mean that on single combat a dagger or similar secondary weapon would be better than a shield.

Depending on what you're fighting against, sometimes a secondary weapon is better.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Depending on what you're fighting against, sometimes a secondary weapon is better.

And in extremely tight quarters, where there's no room for a shield.

[Mehmet]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Hi again.

Some of these answers appear to be missing my point a bit, so I'll try to clarify. I know the definitions that appear in the rules. I'm asking about the rationale for them and how that rationale applies to cases not covered. For example, could you 'Block' with a melee net the same as a cloak? Could you parry with a tiny little buckler if you had a second one after 'Blocking' with the other? (If not, why not?) Why can't you Block with a cestus? ...

Hey mate,

I always felt that a "block" is something you do with a mobile "cover" :) I seem to remember reading something to that effect in some Kromm post or the FAQ, not sure, but it seems to me that the difference is that you can only block with things if those things can conceivably provide some cover to you or any limb/part thereof :) In the case of a cloak, I believe it is the "concealment" that makes it an instrument for blocking.

In other words, (1) you need to be able to make it awkward for your attacker to target you by means of cover / concealment and (ii) line up the said cover / concealment with an oncoming attack (i.e. block) for the active defence to count as a block.

Cheers...

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

If a giant picked up a kite shield by a short edge and swung it like a blade, could he Block with it?

.

No, the Shield is not "ready". Specifically it's not being held in the Shield grip. It's being used as an improvised club.

It might be more prominent in older rules text but all the time in Magic you see attacks like Flame Jet which can be Blocked but not Parried. Note that the Damage to Shields rules should be used in these cases.

In general you appear to be absorbing damage with a Shield in a Block but deflecting an Attack with a weapon in a Parry. Parrying does not usually damage the weapon used except when the Attacking weapon is very heavy.

This distinction is muddied slightly when the Precognitive Parry Cinematic Skill is used against bullets. In that case your weapon does absorb the damage rather than defect the attack (except on a Crit Success) but you're using it against Attacks that do not normally allow Parries at all. So there is still some distinction.

A generous referee might allow you to sue a sword as an improvised Shield (DB 0 with a penalty also) to absorb the damage from a Flame Jet but that's really the only class of situations when you'd _want_ to use weapons to Block i.e when they can't Parry.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

This distinction is muddied slightly when the Precognitive Parry Cinematic Skill is used against bullets. In that case your weapon does absorb the damage rather than defect the attack (except on a Crit Success) but you're using it against Attacks that do not normally allow Parries at all. So there is still some distinction.

A Precognitive Parry deflects the bullets. However, only on a crit success can you deflect them where you want them deflected.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Mehmet

Hey mate,

I always felt that a "block" is something you do with a mobile "cover" :) I seem to remember reading something to that effect in some Kromm post or the FAQ, not sure, but it seems to me that the difference is that you can only block with things if those things can conceivably provide some cover to you or any limb/part thereof :) In the case of a cloak, I believe it is the "concealment" that makes it an instrument for blocking.

In other words, (1) you need to be able to make it awkward for your attacker to target you by means of cover / concealment and (ii) line up the said cover / concealment with an oncoming attack (i.e. block) for the active defence to count as a block.

Cheers...

Hey! That's the best definition I've ever read about this topic.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

In GURPS, you can absorb a blow with a weapon and turn one aside with your shield. The only difference between a parry and a block in GURPS terms, is that if you do it with a weapon it's a parry, and if you do it with a shield, it's a block.

Yep. How I usually explain it to new players:

Block = Put a shield in the way.
Parry = Put a weapon in the way. (And yes, your arm is a weapon.)
Dodge = Get the heck out of the way.