Damage from falls

[Lupo]

Don't you think that damages from falls, per B431, are too low?
They start quite high, but increase veeery slowly...

Let's suppose a 10 HP man, falling on a hard surface.

To get 1d of damage, the minimum fall required is 1 yard.
For 2d, 3 yds
For 3d, 8 yds
For 4d, 15 yds
For 5d, 24 yds
For 6d, 35 yds
For 7d, 49 yds
For 8d, 65 yds

Note that only falls from 35+ yards will probably totalize 20+ hits, forcing you to a HT roll to avoid death.

Since the maximum velocity for a spread-eagled fall is 60 y/s, the maximum possible damage for a 10 HP man is 12d. Averaging 42 hits, you have 1 chance in 8 of surviving a fall from an airplane, if your HT is 10. If your HT is good but in the human norm (that is, 12) you have a 40% chance!

I know that GURPS is a game, and that no system can provide accurate results for each and every situation... but using the rules as written, falls aren't that dangerous.

I know also that people have survived incredible falls, that many attempt of suicide fail that way, that bleeding rules can worsen your condition, but this doesn't seem enough.

Both in reality and in fiction, people are expected to die if they fall from the fourth floor, or into a 20-yards pit.

Hi

Lupo

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Both in reality and in fiction, people are expected to die if they fall from the fourth floor, or into a 20-yards pit.

I'd expect a fall into a 20 yd pit to break your legs but not kill you. A fall from a 4th floor window would probably leave you broken and dying, but not immediately dead. Quick work at the emergency room could save you still.

Luke

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

I'd expect a fall into a 20 yd pit to break your legs but not kill you. A fall from a 4th floor window would probably leave you broken and dying, but not immediately dead. Quick work at the emergency room could save you still.

Luke

I am not sure; many workers die every year falling from roofs of 3 or 4 store houses.

Anyway, in GURPS falling from a 4th floor window *MIGHT* leave you broken, but not dying.
3d damage averages to 10.5, and you can easily roll 9 or less.
An average PC, even in low-powered campaigns, probably has at least 1-2 points of DR, and won't be reduced at negative HP by such a fall.

Hi

Lupo

[enpeze]

Originally Posted by Lupo

I am not sure; many workers die every year falling from roofs of 3 or 4 store houses.

Anyway, in GURPS falling from a 4th floor window *MIGHT* leave you broken, but not dying.
3d damage averages to 10.5, and you can easily roll 9 or less.
An average PC, even in low-powered campaigns, probably has at least 1-2 points of DR, and won't be reduced at negative HP by such a fall.

Hi

Lupo

You are right. One of my first impressions I took from G4 2 months ago was that the falling damage formula is over complicated but not realistic. (same problem like the hiking issue)

[enpeze]

A solution could be to let the faller make a HT death rolls with modifiers, depending on height, beginning with -1 on 15yd and adding a further -1 each additional damage die, eg. -5 for 8d and 65yds)

Its still not realistic because only a mini percentage of people do survive falls from 65yds height, but its better than the default rule and easy to remember in the heat of an roleplaying action.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Lupo

I am not sure; many workers die every year falling from roofs of 3 or 4 store houses.

Anyway, in GURPS falling from a 4th floor window *MIGHT* leave you broken, but not dying.
3d damage averages to 10.5, and you can easily roll 9 or less.
An average PC, even in low-powered campaigns, probably has at least 1-2 points of DR, and won't be reduced at negative HP by such a fall.

On the other hand, a 9 mm pistol bullet through the center torso causes 2d+2. That leaves most people in serious or critical condition, and a large number of them would die without prompt medical treatment. Some of them do die despite prompt medical treatment. So, if somewhere in the vicinity of 7 to 11 points is very serious and likely ultimately lethal, the 3d from a 3 to 4 story fall will, on average, give 1.5 points of damage more, and is thus more serious than getting shot.

For mondo realism, I think the entire GURPS damage system should be reworked, starting with ditching the ablative hit point model (I've done this with my own house rules). If you are not after mondo realism and just want a fun game, then the odd behavior of survivability from falls is probably not an issue.

Personally, I think that most DR should not protect against falls. I've tinkered around with some rules that would correct for this (essentially, all armors have a PAD rating that protects against blunt trauma, and a FLEX rating that gives the fraction of damage that turns into blunt trauma. Wide area impacts would treat all armor as if it had a FLEX of 1 and thus only the PAD protects you). They may be too cumbersome to play, however.

I also think the collision rules for movable objects are not realistic. Particularly where a collision with a movable object can cause more damage than a collision with an immovable object at the same velocity.

Luke

[digoraccoon]

I've made a decision long ago not to try to get into to much realism with the games. I agree that the falling damage seems a bit low, but I consider the PCs heroes with more extrodinary durability then the average person. They're the types that beat the odds and break the statistics more often then not. :)

Some times if I want more realistic statistics, I give average NPCs a few less hit points so that they die more often from falls and gun shots.

[Luther]

Ludo,

I think the falling rules are fine. If you want realism (and I want it too), you should roll for hit locations and apply bleeding rules: internal bleeding is a killer, and serious falls will cause it.

How to apply the above is up to the individual GM, G4 doesn't give anymore guidelines, but clearly supports dangerous falls. Personally I'd roll a location for every full 2d of damage (minimum one location) and apply bleeding rules to torso and head wounds.

PS: you can revise the Hit Location from a fall table from G3 p131 too.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

On the other hand, a 9 mm pistol bullet through the center torso causes 2d+2. That leaves most people in serious or critical condition, and a large number of them would die without prompt medical treatment.

Of course, the bullet just blows a hole in your body. A 1/8 oz. bullet fired at ca. 2500 fps from a gun has far less force behind it than a 150 lb. mass with a terminal velocity of ~200 mph (1200 fps)

Originally Posted by lwcamp

For mondo realism, I think the entire GURPS damage system should be reworked, starting with ditching the ablative hit point model

Ablative HP work very nicely to simulate repeated sub-lethal insults to the system. Since there are a variety of different forms of shock (toxic, septacemic, oligemic, hypovolemic, etc.) which have cumulative, synergistic effects HP make sense, especially since characters are likely to suffer multiple types of injuries.

With just about any injury, you're going to have some form of pain, bleeding or swelling. Any of those responses to injury indicate that your body is attempting to heal damage, which is putting some degree of strain on your immune system, endocrine system and excetory organs, as well as increasing demand for liquids and appropriate nutrients. At some point, if the damage is too great your body's attempts to heal either fail or overwhelm some part of the system and you die. In game terms, that's HP loss.

That said, there is much to be said for a system which allows for crippling without loss of (many) HP (e.g., joint injuries). There is also a place for a system for wounds with delayed mortal effects (e.g., some types of burns and some types of organ failure). At least in GURPS 4e, long-term systemic failure is roughly modeled by the Mortal Wound rules.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Personally, I think that most DR should not protect against falls. I've tinkered around with some rules that would correct for this (essentially, all armors have a PAD rating that protects against blunt trauma, and a FLEX rating that gives the fraction of damage that turns into blunt trauma. Wide area impacts would treat all armor as if it had a FLEX of 1 and thus only the PAD protects you). They may be too cumbersome to play, however.

In GURPS 3e, armor didn't protect you against falls.

The problem is that armor does (or tries to do) three things and GURPS only models one of those things well:

First, armor prevents penetration of blows. This is the classic Newtons of force vs. mm of mild steel beloved by gun nuts. In GURPS terms, this is modeled by DR (and in GURPS 3e, PD).

Second, armor distributes the force of a narrowly focused blow to a larger area. This is why large sheets of rigid armor are more effective against bullets, cuts and impaling attacks than smaller, more flexible pieces. It's also the reason why HESH munitions can defeat armor they can't fully penetrate. GURPS makes a nod towards this fact with the Blunt Trauma rules, but IMO, they're not very good.

Finally, armor decelerates the blow, either by flexing, moving or by using progressively resistant padding beneath a more rigid material. This is the principle behind padded crash helmets or the loose "curtains" of mail or heavy cloth used for some types of horse trappers. As far as I know, no game system handles this aspect of armor very well.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

I also think the collision rules for movable objects are not realistic.

I agree. I think that Punch and Pulver made the bad simplifying assumption that all collisions are equal, when even the tiniest fragment of research would have informed them otherwise. Othe people have pointed out that injuries from falls are different from injuries from jumps, which are different from injuries from vehicle collisions with pedestrians, which are different from injuries to occupants of vehicles involved in collisions.

AFAIK:

Falls: Systemic damage to entire body. Multiple broken bones. Potential for massive tearing or rupturing of internal organs, resulting in both organ failure and internal bleeding.

Jumps: As above, but the pattern of injury is different. As reported, injuries from jumps are more likely to affect the legs, pelvis, dominant arm and dominant side of the body. The latter two injuries result from reflexive attempts to break the fall.

Pedestrian/Vehicle collisions: Injuries to the pedestrian's thighs, pelvis and abdomen, with lesser injuries to the victim's head and neck. This is due to a "one-two punch" where the vehicle impacts the victim's body and then knocks the victim over onto the hood or windshield of the vehicle. Victim is likely to be thrown by the collision, resulting in some dissipation of energy, but with a slightly greater risk of penetrating injuries and/or "road rash" (abrasive burns) from falls or sliding along the ground.
In some cases, especially collisions with massive vehicles (including SUVs) the victim will fall under the vehicle, resulting in massive crushing injuries where the vehicle runs over the victim's body. In other cases, the victim will be dragged, resulting in massive abrasions.

Vehicle Occupant Injuries: In front-end impacts, front seat passengers suffer injuries to their lower legs. In severe crashes, victims suffer deceleration injuries to the neck ("whiplash") and organs of the chest. Damage which penetrates to the passenger compartment is likely to affect the chest and head (especially in side-impact collisions). Unrestrained occupants are likely to suffer blunt trauma injuries due to secondary collision with structures in the interior of the vehicle (e.g., steering wheel, dashboard, windshield). In extreme cases, victims will be ejected from the vehicle. This increases the chance of a penetrating (e.g., cut or impaling) wound, but dissipates some of energy from the collision. Seatbelts slightly dissipate acceleration. Airbags do a much better job of doing the same thing.

Injuries from Dropped objects: Tend to affect the head, neck, upper arms and shoulders. Unless the object is massive, it will tend to slide or bounce off the victim's body so it doesn't impart its full potential energy to the victim's body. Due to the structure of the human body, even if armor protects the head, there is still a serious risk of neck injury due to compression of the cervical spine.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Of course, the bullet just blows a hole in your body. A 1/8 oz. bullet fired at ca. 2500 fps from a gun has far less force behind it than a 150 lb. mass with a terminal velocity of ~200 mph (1200 fps)

Certainly the mechanisms are different, but GURPS abstracts damage out so that 10 HP of damage form one type of wound is as dangerous as 10 HP of damage from another type. If we consider being shot by a handgun that does 2d+2 "very dangerous" then a 4 story fall that does 3d should be even more dangerous.

Whether it actually does stand a good chance of killing you is what this thread is all about.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Ablative HP work very nicely to simulate repeated sub-lethal insults to the system. Since there are a variety of different forms of shock (toxic, septacemic, oligemic, hypovolemic, etc.) which have cumulative, synergistic effects HP make sense, especially since characters are likely to suffer multiple types of injuries.

Well, injuries certainly need to be able to accumulate. It is just that GURPS has very low level injuries accumulating unrealistically fast. A cat scratch or chicken peck can deliver 1 point of GURPS damage. 20 cat scratches or chicken pecks will not kill you (ignoring infection, or an unbelievably unlikely rooster's spur to the brachial artery). I've got a set of semi-cumulative wounding system house rules that I'd love to try sometime that I think corrects for this (but needs playtesting to work out the bugs).

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Second, armor distributes the force of a narrowly focused blow to a larger area. This is why large sheets of rigid armor are more effective against bullets, cuts and impaling attacks than smaller, more flexible pieces. It's also the reason why HESH munitions can defeat armor they can't fully penetrate. GURPS makes a nod towards this fact with the Blunt Trauma rules, but IMO, they're not very good.

Yeah. That's what I am trying to model with the Flex rating for armor. Another house rule in desparate need of play testing. In any event, armor that distributes the blow over a wide area will help against narrow little blows (swords, battleaxes, machine guns) but not do squat against blows that are already distributed over a very wide area (falls, collisions). It really does not matter if you collide with the hard cobblestones, or if your breastplate collides with the cobblestones and you collide with your hard breastplate.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Finally, armor decelerates the blow, either by flexing, moving or by using progressively resistant padding beneath a more rigid material. This is the principle behind padded crash helmets or the loose "curtains" of mail or heavy cloth used for some types of horse trappers. As far as I know, no game system handles this aspect of armor very well.

That is partially what the Pad of my armor rating system does, at least it is meant to simulate the padding of armor.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I agree. I think that Punch and Pulver made the bad simplifying assumption that all collisions are equal, when even the tiniest fragment of research would have informed them otherwise. Othe people have pointed out that injuries from falls are different from injuries from jumps, which are different from injuries from vehicle collisions with pedestrians, which are different from injuries to occupants of vehicles involved in collisions.

Well, I have (guess what) another set of house rules for collision damage, this time based on what happens with the basic mechanics of colliding bodies (conservation of momentum and energy type stuff from Physics 101). It does not address specific injury location issues, but at least it should patch the glaring inconsistencies in the current rules.

BTW, I am stealing your descriptions of damage locations in case I ever get around to write it up for my own rules.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Vehicle Occupant Injuries: In front-end impacts, front seat passengers suffer injuries to their lower legs. In severe crashes, victims suffer deceleration injuries to the neck ("whiplash") and organs of the chest. Damage which penetrates to the passenger compartment is likely to affect the chest and head (especially in side-impact collisions). Unrestrained occupants are likely to suffer blunt trauma injuries due to secondary collision with structures in the interior of the vehicle (e.g., steering wheel, dashboard, windshield). In extreme cases, victims will be ejected from the vehicle.

My personal experience with this is in the form of minor cuts from broken glass, and a friend who got a broken wrist by punching through the glovebox during the collision. Well, that and a couple cases of no injury at all despite impressive high speed collisions and rollovers. It is anecdotal, of course, so take it as you will.

Luke