Combat: Player versus Player

[Onkl]

Hi guys

I like the way GURPS does combat very much and so I would like to play "Player vs Player" GURPS combat. We've tried to do this but failed miserably.

There are two main problems that come with this idea:

Visibility of the opposing forces
Maneuvers the OpFor should not know about (Aim, Wait...)

These points could be solved by doing it like some wargames do: One map and room per faction plus one for the referee. On the referees map there would be the collected information from all the faction maps, the referee could thus tell the factions what they saw and what happened.

Of course, playing GURPS combat like this would be tedious at best and very slow. So I'm looking for a better way.

We've tried to make a "contract" between players so that they would do what their characters would do, ignoring player knowledge... eg. Run through a door where the OpFor was waiting for a victim to appear (Wait Maneuveur - As soon as someone appears in the door frame I open fire).

But as you can imagine, this led to various discussions because some people thought the others were cheating...

Has anyone tried to play GURPS tactical combat "player versus player"?
What were your results?
Do you have a better way to do this than what I suggested?

If all fails and GURPS is simply not able to do this, is there a system you could recommend which accomplishes this in as much detail as GURPS does?

Thanks!

Onkl

[Blind Mapmaker]

Well, GURPS combat is pretty deadly as is and modern-day special ops type play makes it even more so. I wouldn't want to play when one false move means I'll be out of the game for the next hour, at least. So I would give everybody at least two or three characters in the same team to run.

The map problem is more difficult. You could try have the player's write down what they do before their round starts, but that doesn't solve seeing the other people's positions.

A solution might be to use a virtual tabletop like MapTool or Fantasy Battlegrounds. This way you would be able to hide all info from players except for what their characters see. They wouldn't know their opponents' actions either and you wouldn't have to pressure people into making quick decisions because the players who got nothing to can still play solitaire or do whatever they want when it's not their turn.

I probably wouldn't run this in any game but fantasy where melee combat and magical tricks are much more important than knowing where the enemy is and pulling the trigger at the right moment. And even then it's a bit of a let-down to have your character killed every second combat. You'd pretty much have to use pre-generated archetypes as "game tokens" to make the loss of no consequence.

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

Well, GURPS combat is pretty deadly as is and modern-day special ops type play makes it even more so. I wouldn't want to play when one false move means I'll be out of the game for the next hour, at least. So I would give everybody at least two or three characters in the same team to run.

We were trying to do a GURPS version of "Jagged Alliance" where the players get a budget before battle starts, then they roll dice to see who starts and pick pre-generated characters in round-robin until they run out of money.

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

The map problem is more difficult. You could try have the player's write down what they do before their round starts, but that doesn't solve seeing the other people's positions.

A solution might be to use a virtual tabletop like MapTool or Fantasy Battlegrounds. This way you would be able to hide all info from players except for what their characters see. They wouldn't know their opponents' actions either and you wouldn't have to pressure people into making quick decisions because the players who got nothing to can still play solitaire or do whatever they want when it's not their turn.

That could work but I don't think MapTool supports the "interrupts" that can happen when a player uses the wait maneuver... I think it would be up to the referee (GM) to handle the interrupts correctly.

Also, if possible I would like to eliminate the referee (GM) so that all involved could play a faction.

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

I probably wouldn't run this in any game but fantasy where melee combat and magical tricks are much more important than knowing where the enemy is and pulling the trigger at the right moment. And even then it's a bit of a let-down to have your character killed every second combat. You'd pretty much have to use pre-generated archetypes as "game tokens" to make the loss of no consequence.

You're right, playing a Rome Gladiator style combat would be much easier...

[The Wrathchild]

I'd say that if your players cannot find comfort within the kind of contract you describe above, you're probably better off doing something else.

I was the GM of a PbP PvP game for a while. During that time we got to clarify a whole lot of things with the line editor.

One thing that was made very clear is that, if you can see your opponent, you can see what maneuver he takes, EXEPT for feint. This goes for PC's and NPC's alike.

I don't know if it's feasible, but one mehtod could be to require that players write maneuvers down, and only show the written to those who could actually see the character in question.

Hiding placement from those who cannot really see is all but impossible ... exept if you:

Use a VTT. A Virtual TableTop

What you are looking for would be possible if people were each using a laptop, and a VTT program such as MapTool (check at www.rptools.net).

This program of course requires some time to learn how to use, but it has the features to show personal maps to each player, showing only what he or she can see, while the GM of coiurse has total overview. I don't know if it's a possible solution for you, but it's a possibility.

edit: Ack! Ninja'd ;-)

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Onkl

These points could be solved by doing it like some wargames do: One map and room per faction plus one for the referee. On the referees map there would be the collected information from all the faction maps, the referee could thus tell the factions what they saw and what happened.

Of course, playing GURPS combat like this would be tedious at best and very slow. So I'm looking for a better way.

Don't have separate rooms, but do have separate maps: preferably a big one where what is known to all is displayed, and smaller copies that can be eraseably marked on for each party. The GM can track everything on his personal map, and each player can mark their positions of the moment and write their action on the margin, then pass their maps face down to the GM who updates his and theirs accordingly and passes them back. Keep things simple, just track the combatants and dropped items and maybe their footprints if the terrain allows.

Pencil on paper and wax pencils on plastic work best; dry erase markers are too fragile to pass back and forth for my taste, but they are handy for sending short tactical updates if there is a way to face them toward the GM but away from the opposing player. Some sort of divider or partition is handy, and can be as simple as a sheet of poster board or old science fair display propped up with game books.

This should help things move along, but you may want to invoke a time limit. After a couple of rounds of "you do nothing", most people learn to at least say something at the last second.

[The Wrathchild]

That could work but I don't think MapTool supports the "interrupts" that can happen when a player uses the wait maneuver... I think it would be up to the referee (GM) to handle the interrupts correctly.

Also, if possible I would like to eliminate the referee (GM) so that all involved could play a faction.

No, MapTool won't remove the need for a Ref ...

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by The Wrathchild

One thing that was made very clear is that, if you can see your opponent, you can see what maneuver he takes, EXEPT for feint. This goes for PC's and NPC's alike.

I don't know if it's feasible, but one mehtod could be to require that players write maneuvers down, and only show the written to those who could actually see the character in question.

This could be a solution, write down the maneuvers.

The one with the "except feint" is not a good solution IMHO, because then you would have to say:"you can't make out what the enemy is doing" which would of course mean, he's feinting...

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Don't have separate rooms, but do have separate maps: preferably a big one where what is known to all is displayed, and smaller copies that can be eraseably marked on for each party. The GM can track everything on his personal map, and each player can mark their positions of the moment and write their action on the margin, then pass their maps face down to the GM who updates his and theirs accordingly and passes them back. Keep things simple, just track the combatants and dropped items and maybe their footprints if the terrain allows.

Pencil on paper and wax pencils on plastic work best; dry erase markers are too fragile to pass back and forth for my taste, but they are handy for sending short tactical updates if there is a way to face them toward the GM but away from the opposing player. Some sort of divider or partition is handy, and can be as simple as a sheet of poster board or old science fair display propped up with game books.

This should help things move along, but you may want to invoke a time limit. After a couple of rounds of "you do nothing", most people learn to at least say something at the last second.

This is excellent. A big board (We "play" with LEGO) where we would put our minifigs, buildings, cover, dropped weapons and mark hexes with footprints.

To me it sounds like you already played GURPS Combat like this? What was the experience like? Would you do it again?

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Onkl

The one with the "except feint" is not a good solution IMHO, because then you would have to say:"you can't make out what the enemy is doing" which would of course mean, he's feinting...

Eh, let them know the opponent is feinting.

MA101 has some options for delaying Feint results until just before they take effect. Or, you could just let them be aware of the success/failure of a feint right when it happens; the only real concern is a player always stepping out of range (or some similar defensive tactic) after they've been successfully feinted, which in-and-of-itself can be used to an advantage by the opponent...

GURPS combat is structured with very few, if any, necessarily secret rolls.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Onkl

Also, if possible I would like to eliminate the referee (GM) so that all involved could play a faction.

GURPS is not designed to run without a GM. Full stop. There are many many places that require a judgment call by the GM - you simply cannot play this game without a GM.