[DF] Evil and Unholy, is there a difference?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

There's the evil intent of the programmer and the evil magic he used to make them what they are.

When you think about it, it is not said that the ringwraiths were more evil then any other ambitious aristocrat before they accepted the rings, or that they knew what they were doing. Maybe they just happened to succumb to their worst traits at the most unlucky time and Sauron took advantage.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

I'd let it be so for the intelligent undead. For those with Automaton or Reprogrammable Duty, there's no motivation, so there is no Evil intent. You could use affected by Pentagram and True Faith as the determiner, but evil, to me, implies a choice.
[...]
For the lich, I dunno. It actually doesn't have any malicious disadvantages
[...]
Anyone who is using a power with Unholy as a source is pretty much evil by definition.

There you go then - the lich is using Unholy magics to violate the natural cycle of life and death, and so is the zombie maker and the skeleton raiser. The individual, mindless zombies and skeletons have no personhood to be evil or good, but the defiling animus that propels them can be abjured. The lich is in the same boat - his personhood remains perched in the cage of his mortal remains, but those remains are preserved and animated by equally fell alchemies and dweomers.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

What if being undead was their sentence for evil they did in life? Alternatively what if they were under the spell of an evil wizard in which case they would be be no more evil then any slave who does evil things for his master's bidding? And when the PCs find out they can go on a quest to free them naturally enough.
Or what if good ghosts simply appear differently, because evil ones are malicious and want to harm mankind while good ones want to help or to just be left alone.

Interesting questions.

Is following an evil order more evil than refusing to follow an evil order? If your life or the life of those you care about (e.g. Sense of Duty or Dependent) are in danger, is it still evil?

Does good actions or serving the powers of good, make what otherwise would be an evil creature good?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Interesting questions.

Is following an evil order more evil than refusing to follow an evil order? If your life or the life of those you care about (e.g. Sense of Duty or Dependent) are in danger, is it still evil?

Does good actions or serving the powers of good, make what otherwise would be an evil creature good?

Note that in GURPS it's not about what you do. It's about what kind of power source you tap into. Take an example. In the late 70s Marvel Comics had a bunch of horror heroes show up, like Werewolf By Night, Ghost Rider and Daimon Hellstrom, powered by satanic pacts, evil curses and demonic ancestry. They weren't bad people, but a Detect Evil or Unholy would still ping, because their cords were plugged into evil's outlet. Detect dirt detects both those with dirty fingers and those with dirty finger prints. Of course these power sources usually come with pacts and side effects that obligate you to do some rather unpleasant things (that being what makes them evil and unholy), but it isn't the unpleasant things that the Detects pick up. It's the power source.

[vicky_molokh]

For a case of unrelated Evil and Unholy: The Death Knight heroes (yes, heroes! Post-BC) of Warcraft can choose one of three specialization-sources, one of which is Unholy.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Is following an evil order more evil than refusing to follow an evil order?

Different cultures have different answers. Many tribal societies consider loyalty and obedience to tribe leadership the greatest good and deny the subordinate the opportunity to question the leader's judgment. A very common theme in Asian stories is a good servant serving an evil master who acknowledges the evil he is committing but feels that defiance will dishonor his family, where his ultimate loyalty lies; the conflict is often resolved by the good servant sacrificing their lives for the greater good of everyone or by the prospect of suicide, the only "acceptable" way to disagree with one's master and express how serious the conflict is.

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Does good actions or serving the powers of good, make what otherwise would be an evil creature good?

Possibly, but they could have selfish or even evil motives for doing good for the moment. And of course there are numerous religious parables and allegories where the evil person's deeds serve God's plan for ultimate good without them being any less evil or God being any less good.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

What if being undead was their sentence for evil they did in life? Alternatively what if they were under the spell of an evil wizard in which case they would be be no more evil then any slave who does evil things for his master's bidding? And when the PCs find out they can go on a quest to free them naturally enough.
Or what if good ghosts simply appear differently, because evil ones are malicious and want to harm mankind while good ones want to help or to just be left alone.

Even a ghost who lingers for their own, virtuous reasons is still violating the natural order. This can be considered to make them their own fell power, however petty, or it can make them even harder to banish than simply breaking an evil spell.

The being undead as punishment for the ever-popular living of an evil life is interesting, but not always well thought out. What point is God making to whom when Vlad the Impaler is "cursed" with superpowers and immortality?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

What point is God making to whom when Vlad the Impaler is "cursed" with superpowers and immortality?

"I really don't like you guys".

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

The being undead as punishment for the ever-popular living of an evil life is interesting, but not always well thought out. What point is God making to whom when Vlad the Impaler is "cursed" with superpowers and immortality?

I think the tradition is more that the devil has granted the powers, but the bad parts are that "nothing good can come of this." Meaning, Vlad can't ever get his girl back, and everything he does will be evil and monstrous, and he will be hunted. He doesn't get to, say, sparkle in the sunshine and be the hero. That's the curse.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Even a ghost who lingers for their own, virtuous reasons is still violating the natural order. This can be considered to make them their own fell power, however petty, or it can make them even harder to banish than simply breaking an evil spell.

The being undead as punishment for the ever-popular living of an evil life is interesting, but not always well thought out. What point is God making to whom when Vlad the Impaler is "cursed" with superpowers and immortality?

We're talking about folklore, not theology. The point is the Rule of Cool.