25% of Starting Points

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Bengt

I'm curious what Alexander's 25-point "average" 5-year old looks like stated up. I mean they are going to have pretty low stats, at least in ST and IQ since they are pretty small (quick internet search puts 5-year olds at ~18 kg, ~109 cm) and lacks a lot of general knowledge you would expect from an adult. They'll also have some disadvantages for wealth and social standing. What are they buying to get up to 25 points?

Well, slightly older children may display much better DX, at least for some tasks, and Basic Speed than they will as adults. It's not an accident that despite lower ST and not having had time to develop the highest relative skill, pixie-like prepubescent children are among the best gymnasts in the world. And older people can't compete with youths at twitch-speed based computer games, even if they played such games extesively when they were young.

A 5-year-old probably can amass quite a lot of points in Patron (Parents), Allies (Other family and family friends), Contacts (Teachers, friends' parents, etc.) and similar. Pitiable and Charisma.

[Bengt]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, slightly older children may display much better DX, at least for some tasks, and Basic Speed than they will as adults. It's not an accident that despite lower ST and not having had time to develop the highest relative skill, pixie-like prepubescent children are among the best gymnasts in the world. And older people can't compete with youths at twitch-speed based computer games, even if they played such games extesively when they were young.

A 5-year-old probably can amass quite a lot of points in Patron (Parents), Allies (Other family and family friends), Contacts (Teachers, friends' parents, etc.) and similar. Pitiable and Charisma.

Higher DX might be appropriate for older children, but I don't think it fits 5-year olds. A most they have perhaps reached ~10 by then.

Contacts are kind of cheap unless they have high skills and have a high frequency of appearance. Children can't have adult Allies in Alexander's settings since they cost 250 and are too expensive, they'll all have to be Patrons. Like Contacts Patrons need high frequency to eat much points (or be supers etc) and I don't see a lot of adults dropping everything to assists five year olds with their schemes on a regular basis.

Sure, 5 pts for Pitiable. Charisma "... ability to impress and lead others.", not so much.

[AlexanderHowl]

The two parents and the four grandparents of a 5 year old would be built as Patron (Extremely Powerful, 15-) [45] (the two parents and the four grandparents count as one Patron). The average 5 year old is also going to effectively possess an average of -160 in Attributes, but they will actually have enough points in potential to buy them off (to represent the effects of growing up), so I consider it to be neutral (basically, they are going to gain an average of 160 points in Attributes over the next ten years, so I interpret them as having an average pool of 160 points that they have yet to spend). I give them Social Stigma (Minor), Wealth (Dead Broke), and ten point in skills (since they have no schooling or work experience, it is all trivial stuff). The end result is a 25 point character (though one with 160 points in reserve).

The average ten year old will possess Patron (Extremely Powerful, 12-) [30] in the form of their parents and grandparents,l and the same disadvantages, but they will have 40 points in skills (20 points trivial and 20 points from school) and 10 points in Allies (two friends who have not purchased them as Allies). Their attributes are -60 points, meaning that they still have a 60 point reserve. The end result is a 50 point character.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The average 5 year old is also going to effectively possess an average of -160 in Attributes, but they will actually have enough points in potential to buy them off (to represent the effects of growing up), so I consider it to be neutral (basically, they are going to gain an average of 160 points in Attributes over the next ten years, so I interpret them as having an average pool of 160 points that they have yet to spend). [...]The end result is a 25 point character (though one with 160 points in reserve).

That's not how points work.

That's a -135 point character, who as a special effect has a good justification to spend earned points to increase basic Attributes over his career.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Bengt

Sure, 5 pts for Pitiable. Charisma "... ability to impress and lead others.", not so much.

If you have Pitiable and Social Stigma (Minor), as well as low IQ and no points in Leadership or any abilities relevant to organise and lead anything, your Charisma is functionally mostly useful for making others like you. Children can be really good at that, without even knowing how they are doing it. Cleanst mechanical representation of that is a Reaction Bonus, which is what Charisma is in game terms.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The average ten year old will possess Patron (Extremely Powerful, 12-) [30] in the form of their parents and grandparents,l and the same disadvantages, but they will have 40 points in skills (20 points trivial and 20 points from school) and 10 points in Allies (two friends who have not purchased them as Allies). Their attributes are -60 points, meaning that they still have a 60 point reserve. The end result is a 50 point character.

There is no conceivable way that an average 10-year-old can have 20 points in skills from school. That would let them, for example, buy Writing at IQ+1, Mathematics (Applied) at IQ+1, and History at IQ+1, looking only at subjects that are taught in elementary school. The great majority of adults don't have any of those!

What does time spent in school buy you? It gives you the written form of your native language at Accented (2 points; a 5-year-old starts with Accented/None for -3 points). It buys Innumerate down to Math-Shy (4 points). And it pays for the part of IQ that represents accumulated general knowledge (the sort of thing that's commonplace enough for the GM to say, "OK, roll vs. IQ to know that"). I think that accounts for the majority of points gained from elementary school attendance.

[AlexanderHowl]

Children have to spend points to buy off their reduced Attributes (Characters, p. 20), so they have to have a reserve of points that allow them to buy up their Attributes since the average child is not adventuring. In the case of skills, they are not just developing academic skills, they are developing athletic and social skills. In the USA, children typically have six courses (PE plus five academic courses), and they would be developing their social skills. In the case of a nerd though, they would have twenty academic skills, all at one point each, by the time that they are 10 years old (by the time that they are 15, a nerd might have forty academic skills, though it depends on the individual). I would suggest that no 10 year old should have more than one point in each of their academic skills and no 15 year old should have more than two points in each of their academic skills because the modern education system is broad rather than deep (the exception being Mathematics (Abstract), which a nerd can easily achieve four points by age 10 and eight points by age 15).

I think that there is just a fundamental difference in approach when it comes to viewing the capabilities of people (especially NPCs). I see NPCs as competent and worthwhile individuals who are just not optimized for adventuring (the average 25 year old will have average attributes but will probably have 125 points in skills and social advantages like Allies and Contacts, it is just that most of their academic skills will be at one point and the majority of their points are invested in trivial skills). While they are probably useless in a firefight (unless they are military or police), they still make worthwhile contacts or allies because they have their own competencies, though PCs probably will never need someone who possesses the world record for GTA 5 (Games (GTA 5) at IQ+10 is 32 points).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Children have to spend points to buy off their reduced Attributes (Characters, p. 20), so they have to have a reserve of points that allow them to buy up their Attributes since the average child is not adventuring.

Nope. A note to the effect that a given Advantage or higher Attribute will be added to a character more than two years later is worth 0 points, just like Terminally Ill on a time scale longer than a couple of years does not give any points back.

Point values change through life events and aging. This isn't worth points and in any case, point value only has meaning in the context of PCs, i.e. for the PCs and any NPCs that are Allies, Dependents, Enemies, etc.

[AlexanderHowl]

That is contrary to the rules stated in Characters, as it specifically says that children have to purchase their Attribute improvements. If someone takes Heir, it does not matter if they will inherit the traits in one year or ten years, they still have to pay the difference in the cost to get the advantages under Heir. The only reason why Terminally Ill is an exception is because a threat of death more than two years distant is effectively worthless (especially since Terminally Ill usually possesses Mitigator in modern campaigns).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Children have to spend points to buy off their reduced Attributes (Characters, p. 20), so they have to have a reserve of points that allow them to buy up their Attributes since the average child is not adventuring. .

Right Ok I agree pg20 says children have to pay the CP for their stats as they age up, and I can see why you argue that since their not adventuring and thus not earning CP thay have to have reserve pool of CP for this purpose.


However I'd argue that it doesn't work in the context of this discussion, because children don't have to actually do anything or devote learning time to go through puberty, it just happens.

I think the idea of child PC having to pay off the natural stat increases is more about balancing them against the starting CP of the party since their starting lower stats will give then CP in disadvantages which they spend initially and is what they're buying back.

However real world population are not adventuring parties that all start with same CP, so I don't think this is an appropriate use of these rules.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In the case of skills, they are not just developing academic skills, they are developing athletic and social skills. In the USA, children typically have six courses (PE plus five academic courses), and they would be developing their social skills. In the case of a nerd though, they would have twenty academic skills, all at one point each, by the time that they are 10 years old (by the time that they are 15, a nerd might have forty academic skills, though it depends on the individual). I would suggest that no 10 year old should have more than one point in each of their academic skills and no 15 year old should have more than two points in each of their academic skills because the modern education system is broad rather than deep (the exception being Mathematics (Abstract), which a nerd can easily achieve four points by age 10 and eight points by age 15).

I think that there is just a fundamental difference in approach when it comes to viewing the capabilities of people (especially NPCs). I see NPCs as competent and worthwhile individuals who are just not optimized for adventuring (the average 25 year old will have average attributes but will probably have 125 points in skills and social advantages like Allies and Contacts, it is just that most of their academic skills will be at one point and the majority of their points are invested in trivial skills). While they are probably useless in a firefight (unless they are military or police), they still make worthwhile contacts or allies because they have their own competencies, though PCs probably will never need someone who possesses the world record for GTA 5 (Games (GTA 5) at IQ+10 is 32 points).

I think the point is being the possessor of a world record GTA5 skill, is by definition a singular individual in that area, and not representative of people in general.

Basilly I think that an awful lot of GTA players just have GTA skill +1 at hobby level no matter how long they play GTA 5 for.

As a general point to your posts in this thread time spent doing things doesn't not necessarily equal amssaing CP in it.

Weather that's time at school, time playing computer games, time at work.

This isn't a value judgement of worth (I really don't assign real world worth using an advancement system in an RPG)