[MA] [TG] Berserk, Reistance, Pins and potential Errata

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As per MA p. 114, rolls to avoid being knocked prone by sweep or takedown, thrown from a lock, shoved around after a grapple or even pinned, are all effectively Active Defences and after an All-Out Attack, you automatically fail them.

Luckily, I don't use MA.

Originally Posted by Kromm

We probably should have exempted that from things that work automatically because they use Contests instead of defense rolls.

Or just exempt everything that uses a roll vs ST, HT, or IQ; it's usually only DX and DX-based skills that are logically related to active defense rolls. To be honest, I'd probably change all-out attack from 'cannot make active defense rolls' to '-4 to active defense rolls, cannot retreat'.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Luckily, I don't use MA.

Or just exempt everything that uses a roll vs ST, HT, or IQ; it's usually only DX and DX-based skills that are logically related to active defense rolls. To be honest, I'd probably change all-out attack from 'cannot make active defense rolls' to '-4 to active defense rolls, cannot retreat'.

If I was using MA I'd let beserkers use committed attacks. There's a -2 to defenses, and many are forbidden.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Doing an All-Out Attack does forbid you to roll in a Quick Contest where that's the defense against the attack. This is to avoid situations where All-Out Attack somehow limits defense against moves that use attack roll/defense roll pairs but not against those that use Quick Contests, basing ability to defend on the mechanic chosen for the dice rolling rather than on whether you're in a position to defend.

However, an All-Out Attack doesn't forbid you to roll in a Quick Contest where that's the follow-up to the attack you've automatically failed to avoid. In those cases, the resistance roll is an intrinsic property of being massive or healthy, and the attack already took advantage of your All-Out Attack by not having to face your defenses. Forbidding both would be double-dipping. For instance, Arm Lock, Choke Hold, Ear Clap, etc. hit without defense, but the follow-up resistance rolls vs. damage, fatigue, stun, etc. still occur; Disarming, Sweep, etc. hit without defense, but the ensuing Quick Contests for effect are still rolled; and so on.

Wow, okay, that makes a huge difference. I read MA p. 114 in a way that left me with the impression that Sweeps, Disarms and other similar things fitted in with 'takedowns, pins, throws from locks and grappling techniques that attack with a QC' rather than 'ST or HT rolls to resist injury from...' Being knocked down or disarmed didn't seem to fall under 'resist injury', so I didn't think you could roll if you AoA-ed.

Obviously, you know what you meant to write, though.

This has the effect of transforming Sweep from the go-to attack against berserkers into a low percentile move. The go-to is now grapple followed by a takedown (followed by a pin).

Originally Posted by Kromm

This makes a berserker prone to being grabbed, taken down, and so forth, but no more vulnerable to follow-ups than if he weren't berserk.

Well, he's still vulnerable to throws from locks, which are brutal. And even without much of the rest, a two-handed Arm Lock still gives a +9 to the QC to retain the lock, meaning that a fairly normal soldier with ST 11 has a 50% chance of holding on to a ST 20 berserker even without Wrestling at more than a point or so.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The one real flaw I see is with pin . . . I tend to think that's about mass, and I'd let a berserker roll to resist that. We probably should have exempted that from things that work automatically because they use Contests instead of defense rolls.

Probably so, because even if I am fine with the outcome, i.e. AoA being pretty much an automatic 'defeat me please' button, I have some issues with the specifics of the resolution. A fairly ordinary goblin, whose sole claim to fame is maybe a level of two of DX higher than his DX 11 comrades and Wrestling at at least DX+2*, being able to grapple, takedown and pin any foe dumb enough to AoA in just a single turn, regardless of size, is one of the weird ones.

*I tend assume any professional warrior has some basic unarmed competence, striking and grappling. When he's a member of a race where vicious brawls, riots and even brutal stabbings are not so much noteworthy events as they are a typical dinner with the family, few warriors reach adulthood without a 'professional' DX+2 level in fighting with and without weapons.

Originally Posted by Kromm

All of which is mostly moot in DF, which expressly doesn't use the full Martial Arts rules for this stuff anyway. It uses the Basic Set rules, which allow all Quick Contests even to people who do All-Out Attacks.

That certainly makes a difference. On the other hand, I got the impression that MA was meant to clarify rather than change what 'no Active Defences' meant in a grappling situation and that being unable to defend against takedowns and throws had been the norm even in the Basic Set.

[Aneirin]

Or could just adapt the advantage beserk.

Instead of must use all out attack, must use committed attack. Price it a few points lower, not too many, beserk seems undercosted as is, and there you go, you now have playable beserker.

[Ji ji]

A "telegraphic QC" should be a situation where the attacker obtains a +4 while the defender obtains +2? If we follow this path, apart from simulative issues, I'm wondering why a character should not make a telegraphic attack in every QC worded as "attack", for a net +2 to attacker.
Did I misunderstand something?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Telegraphic Attack isn't an option for Quick Contests. It's an option for attacks that face active defense rolls.

In the case of takedowns or similar Attacks, it's an attack which is defended against by a QC.

I agree that it's silly to allow a bonus for Telegraphic Attack to apply, either here or to the contests that follow use of Techniques like Sweep or Disarm, but as far as I know, there isn't any rule saying so. Obviously, in my games, I've chosen to add one.

[Kromm]

Telegraphic Attack is specifically the inverse of Deceptive Attack, and is only permitted for melee attacks that allow active defenses against them. It would take a special rule to extend it to other things – not to limit its use for things it wouldn't apply to in the first place! That's why there's nothing there saying "doesn't apply to Contests."

[Ji ji]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I agree that it's silly to allow a bonus for Telegraphic Attack to apply, either here or to the contests that follow use of Techniques like Sweep or Disarm, but as far as I know, there isn't any rule saying so. Obviously, in my games, I've chosen to add one.

The very text of telegraphic attack involves that you trade a bonus to attack with a bonus your opponent has to defend. There's no need for a rule specifically stating that it makes no sense in QC: if we could apply it, this would results in trading a bonus for a similar, halved bonus to opponent!

That is: if in QC you allow a +4 bonus for TA against an opponent who did AoA, then you're allowing a +4 bonus to attacker for a +2 to an opponent who didn't AoA. A net +2 to attacker in any QC. It's crystal clear that TA is not intended for QC attacks, wether or not the text generally refers to "attacks". There's no need for further specification.

[DouglasCole]

Technical Grappling clarifies what techniques always get at least a roll due to ST being a proxy for mass, and spends a short time on various types of Contests, when they're used, and what they mean.

If only someone with Judo Throw would get the big darn Ogre out of the way . . . :-)

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

If you do that you should probably lower the value of the disadvantage.

agreed. Though I contend that if you're using MA and other optional combat rules the things you can do to a beserker get much worse. In standard rules you can easily hit for standard damage. With "optional rules" the telegraphic eye-poke becomes legal, as does telegraphic chinks in armor and other nasty options.