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Old 10-30-2012, 09:22 AM   #1
Icelander
 
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Default [MA] [TG] Berserk, Reistance, Pins and potential Errata

Berserk characters aren't just vulnerable to eye pokes. In fact, anything that merely does damage is probably letting them down easy. Given that they're also subject to automatic Sweeps, Arm Locks, Judo Throws, Throws from Lock or any other nasty grappling-based fight ending move, taking them out is easy as pie.

Even if it would require two attacks to set up a fight ender, if he's utterly defenceless, it's so easy to just Rapid Telegraphic Strike, for a mere -2 to each attack.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

Up to a point that's true, but remember what Martial Arts says about these moves: "You still get a ST or HT roll to resist injury." The classic fantasy berserker has ST and HT to spare, and most moves use the better of the two scores. Given the average minotaur barbarian's ST 20, HT 16 before potential power-ups (like up to Lifting ST 3 for +3 to ST when grappling and Very Fit for +2 to HT rolls), I wouldn't want to count on choking, breaking limbs with grappling, etc. And just chucking him on the ground . . . I keep getting visions of the "dead" Terminator crawling for me, but with 100% more horns.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:05 AM   #3
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Up to a point that's true, but remember what Martial Arts says about these moves: "You still get a ST or HT roll to resist injury." The classic fantasy berserker has ST and HT to spare, and most moves use the better of the two scores. Given the average minotaur barbarian's ST 20, HT 16 before potential power-ups (like up to Lifting ST 3 for +3 to ST when grappling and Very Fit for +2 to HT rolls), I wouldn't want to count on choking, breaking limbs with grappling, etc. And just chucking him on the ground . . . I keep getting visions of the "dead" Terminator crawling for me, but with 100% more horns.
Huh.

I had always understood MA p. 114 to mean that the AoA character is pretty much finished.

Of the combat moves I mentioned, only Arm Lock allows an AoA character any kind of resistance roll. And that only protects from damage from the lock, it doesn't really help you get free or help you once you are prone, have suffered swing damage to the arm from Throws from Locks and are still in the lock.

If you Arm Lock and Throw from Lock against an AoA character, what can he realistically do? You can move to the hex to the side of his legs, making it much more awkward for him to attack with anything and still allowing you to keep the lock. Or, if you used an AoA of your own, you can just use your half Move forward after throwing him to ensure that you're out of range when it's his turn again. Once he's done his All-Out Change Position*, you can move back in for some more mayhem he can in no way defend against.**

Since it takes him two turns to stand up and you can Sweep him in one attack and Throw from Lock in two attacks without any meaningful chance for resistance, you'll be able to keep him down infinitely and find something bad to do to him alongside all those Sweeps or Throws.

Never Wrench a Berskerker, of course. But there are plenty of ways to hurt him with grappling that doesn't allow a ST or HT roll at all.

I'm not totally convinced that some of these easy fight-ending locks are realistic. But the RAW, so far at least, allows them to be used.

Edit: Though I'm suddenly not sure whether I ever found out the official line on what happens if someone uses Rapid Strike or All-Out Attack (Double) with grappling. There are a lot of places in MA where it says 'in the turn after...', but I don't know to what degree this is meant as a check on too-fast grappling fight-enders. I thought I remembered PK or you saying that All-Out Attack (Double) Arm Lock + Throw from Lock was kosher, but I can't find any such thing. If it's not, obviously that extends the 'useful' life of the berserker by a whole second.

*Which is the only way Berserkers can change position, poor defenceless dears that they are.
**If he doesn't try to stand up, the RAW appears to allow you to Pin him without him being able to resist in any way. Just move in, and declare AoA(Double) or Rapid Strike, grapple his torso and then pin. All you need to do is succeed at two grappling rolls. He, in turn, gets no roll at all.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:18 AM   #4
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As far as I can see, all of the following are RAW-legal responses to an AoA you survive:

If you parry an attack: Attack maneuver, Rapid Strike option. Telegraphic Arm Lock at Weapon or grappling skill-2 + Telegraphic Takedown at grappling skill-2.* Place the foe prone on the ground. If possible, use your Step to move to the hex occupied by his legs** while continuing to hold the lock. He can now attack you by kicking or with a wild swing from his free arm.
The battle is technically not over, but unless his AoA in response to this successfully gets him free, even despite your +9 to the QC and his -4, your next move is either AoA (Double) or just Rapid Strike; Grapple + Pin.

If you have a two-handed weapon (or Judo, Karate or Sumo Wrestling): Telegraphic Sweep, for automatic knockdown. Then either you or someone else can follow up with a Grapple + Pin. If you have enough skill, meaning Sweep at 12+ and grappling at 16 or so, you could even do all three in one turn: All-Out Attack (Double), one attack of which is a Rapid Strike. Telegraphic Sweep at Sweep+1 + Rapid Strike Telegraphic Grapple/Torso at skill-2 + Rapid Strike Telegraphic Pin at skill-2 (or -6 if we don't allow Telegraphic on other than 'to hit rolls).

If there are two or more of you: Rapid Strike Telegraphic Grapple + Rapid Strike Telegraphic Arm Lock. Each takes one arm. An alternative is simply a Telegraphic Disarm. Yeah, sure, some berserkers might have horns or just be real good at kicking, but at least they won't have weapons for more than one second of a fight against a group of thinking foes. And assuming that there are at least three or four foes, nothing prevents two of them from doing this while someone else is doing a Sweep and/or moving in for the grapple + pin.

It looks to me that within at most two seconds of starting a fight with a few human guards, goblin hunters or orc raiders, the berserker is going to be unable to use his weapons, lying prone and able to be pinned by any foe who can make an unopposed grappling skill roll.

The default counter to a berserker will, of course, be All-Out Defence with a spear held in a Defensive staff grip. You really don't want to be hit, after all. And then, if you do survive, you can Sweep. And if you parried, you may even Sweep + Arm Lock. And a prone berserker should automatically invite an All-Out Attack (Double) or Rapid Strike (depending on your skill) attempt to Grapple + Pin him. About the only thing that would not make you want to do that is if he has allies that are still fighting, in which case you had better deal with them first, just stopping every two turns to Sweep the berserker so he stays out of the battle.

*Even though the RAW never specifically forbids it, I think allowing Telegraphic to apply to all kinds of attacks, even Actions after a Grapple that count as attacks, is sometimes excessive. I'd disallow the Telegraphic bonus on anything that is not a roll 'to hit', such as Takedowns and other Actions after a Grapple. This would make the latter roll at skill-6.
**Prone SM 0 character occupy two hexes. You're still in Close Combat, you're just one hex away from his free arm. Even if this is not legal, it doesn't really matter, because you're still behind your foe and he's lying down and in a lock, which means that he can only perform kicks, Back Strikes, Elbow Strikes and Wild Swings at a further -8 anyway.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #5
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

Berserk is most useful to NPCs; when you have some animal with lots of ST and hit points, mediocre combat skills, and maybe things like nictating membrane or a really tiny brain (the brain is behind the human eye. When dealing with something with a walnut-sized brain, an eye poke is just an eye poke) there's really no downside to having it go berserk, other than how tedious it is.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:30 AM   #6
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Berserk is most useful to NPCs; when you have some animal with lots of ST and hit points, mediocre combat skills, and maybe things like nictating membrane or a really tiny brain (the brain is behind the human eye. When dealing with something with a walnut-sized brain, an eye poke is just an eye poke) there's really no downside to having it go berserk, other than how tedious it is.
Until Technical Grappling fixes it, there is no reason why Locking, Sweeping, Throwing, Grappling and Pinning doesn't work on huge monsters as well as on humans. As long as they are All-Out Attacking, no amount of ST or SM bonuses are going to help them. They just don't get any rolls to resist being thrown around and pinned.

Sure, if they lack arms, Arm Lock might be out, but unless they lack the standing posture, sweeping and throwing are still in. And once they are down, size is no barrier to a simple Rapid Strike Grapple + Pin. Just have to make your skill roll, no opposed roll or nothing.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:54 AM   #7
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SM has its usual benefits in close combat,
What benefits? If you don't make opposed rolls because you can't defend, what use is a bonus because of your SM?

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and minotaurs come with CC weapons strapped to their heads. Minotaurs with the longhorn powerup STILL have CC weapons strapped to their heads, but now they do a silly amount of damage and have the option of disgusting reach.
The ability to do lots of damage is irrelevant when it is not accompanied by the ability to engage the threat in question.

Long horns don't give any kind of immunity to penalties for attackr's position or attacking to the rear.

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Which means that my SM +1 longhorn minotaur had an alarming area-denial effect, even if you broke his leg and try to sit on him.
Eh, while he's prone, he can make goring attacks at -4, but as long as you're sitting on top of him, only as Wild Swings. And if he's got Brawling 22+, he manages to reach the maximum of 9 even while grappled, but against any kind of marginally competent opposition, hitting on a 9 or lower is the pits. Especially since if you miss, you'll be pinned next turn.

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A goblin tried to judo-throw him, failed, and got turned into a jaunty hat.
Failing an unopposed roll where you may freely use Telegraphic for an extra +4 is so incompetent or at least unlucky that I guess he deserved to lose.

What about literally any other foe who has Judo?

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The Bloody Baron (some kind of wight) broke Mrugnak's legs and turned his back on 'im, only to discover that a minotaur can in fact still charge while on all fours.
Assuming we are willing to define Move 1 as 'charge'.

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The other thing about the giant-berserker archetype is that Bersker hinges on percentage of HP done in a single blow. Having lots of HP and good DR makes it harder to hit the critical number - and playing a race with natural DR, on a template that lets you buy DR, and starts you with tons of HP, that's a LOT harder to hit the critical number.
No help against Pin. After a successful one, the foe has nine turns to figure out some way to hurt his helpless berserker prey.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:31 PM   #8
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Until Technical Grappling fixes it, there is no reason why Locking, Sweeping, Throwing, Grappling and Pinning doesn't work on huge monsters as well as on humans. As long as they are All-Out Attacking, no amount of ST or SM bonuses are going to help them. They just don't get any rolls to resist being thrown around and pinned.
Where do you get the idea that all-out attack prevents you from making resistance rolls? It prevents you from making active defense rolls, but has no effect on resistance rolls.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:47 PM   #9
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Where do you get the idea that all-out attack prevents you from making resistance rolls? It prevents you from making active defense rolls, but has no effect on resistance rolls.
As per MA p. 114, rolls to avoid being knocked prone by sweep or takedown, thrown from a lock, shoved around after a grapple or even pinned, are all effectively Active Defences and after an All-Out Attack, you automatically fail them. The only exceptions are genuine resistance rolls, such as ones to avoid damage from locks or wrenches, but since it's quite possible to end a fight without resorting to anything allowing one of them, that's not much help.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:02 PM   #10
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Doing an All-Out Attack does forbid you to roll in a Quick Contest where that's the defense against the attack. This is to avoid situations where All-Out Attack somehow limits defense against moves that use attack roll/defense roll pairs but not against those that use Quick Contests, basing ability to defend on the mechanic chosen for the dice rolling rather than on whether you're in a position to defend.

However, an All-Out Attack doesn't forbid you to roll in a Quick Contest where that's the follow-up to the attack you've automatically failed to avoid. In those cases, the resistance roll is an intrinsic property of being massive or healthy, and the attack already took advantage of your All-Out Attack by not having to face your defenses. Forbidding both would be double-dipping. For instance, Arm Lock, Choke Hold, Ear Clap, etc. hit without defense, but the follow-up resistance rolls vs. damage, fatigue, stun, etc. still occur; Disarming, Sweep, etc. hit without defense, but the ensuing Quick Contests for effect are still rolled; and so on.

This makes a berserker prone to being grabbed, taken down, and so forth, but no more vulnerable to follow-ups than if he weren't berserk. The one real flaw I see is with pin . . . I tend to think that's about mass, and I'd let a berserker roll to resist that. We probably should have exempted that from things that work automatically because they use Contests instead of defense rolls.

All of which is mostly moot in DF, which expressly doesn't use the full Martial Arts rules for this stuff anyway. It uses the Basic Set rules, which allow all Quick Contests even to people who do All-Out Attacks.
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