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Old 06-21-2013, 07:35 AM   #51
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
How about basing it off MoF? 5 or more means instant unconsciousness, 3-4 means fading consciousness (a chance to make a noise for a few seconds), 1-2 means mere incapacitation (you don't fall unconscious until you fail again). For death, 5 or more means instant death (no sound beyond falling), 3-4 means a noisy death (unless restrained from making noise), 1-2 is a Mortal Wound, as normal.
Needs some tweaks, but sure why not.

(A few seconds should probably be, say, 1d seconds, or something else, but defined. And incapacitation means you won't have occasion to fail again, because you don't make rolls to pass out if you Do Nothing.)
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
80/40 is probably a bit excessive for simply holding up a collapsing body, but properly (i.e. leaving no ability to make noise) restraining someone with only one arm should probably require a good deal more than double the BL necessary to do it with two, simply because two arms makes it more than twice as easy to restrain someone.
Restraining someone isn't denominated in BL. There is of course a considerable grappling disadvantage for using one hand instead of two.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
In the first second, the sentry is probably going to be mentally stunned if you managed to sneak up on him, but beyond that you have no guarantee. If he isn't mentally stunned (say, thanks to him being alerted to your presence and having Combat Reflexes), you still have a better chance of keeping him restrained one-armed for one second than you do for keeping him restrained one-armed for the amount of time it takes to stab him to death. Personally, I'd also rule that dedicating an entire round to restraining someone (as opposed to restraining someone while making an Attack action) should probably give a bonus to doing so, regardless of the number of arms involved.
We call that last 'All Out Attack'.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:07 AM   #52
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Needs some tweaks, but sure why not.

(A few seconds should probably be, say, 1d seconds, or something else, but defined. And incapacitation means you won't have occasion to fail again, because you don't make rolls to pass out if you Do Nothing.)
For these purposes, let's say struggling enough to (try to) make significant noise is something other than Do Nothing, but can be done when incapacitated. Thus, the victim can try to fire his weapon (note this is purely random and nothing akin to an attack!), scream, etc, but he has to make another roll against incapacitation to do so.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Restraining someone isn't denominated in BL. There is of course a considerable grappling disadvantage for using one hand instead of two.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
We call that last 'All Out Attack'.
What I would probably do is state that any Attack/AoA action used simply to maintain a grapple would give a bonus (+2 or so, +4 may be more appropriate) toward said maintenance, in addition to any Dedicated/All Out bonus. Otherwise, once you've grappled an opponent, there is no incentive to not continue attacking (say, with your knees), despite the fact that in reality it's easier to maintain a grapple if you do nothing else.

I can't remember what the penalty to using one hand for grappling is, but I'll assume it's -2 (I think it's more). That means if you opt to hold your opponent with one hand while stabbing, you're at -2 to maintain the grapple. If you opt to go All Out (Double), you're at +0. By contrast, the guy using the "bleed out" strategy is holding with both hands and using an Attack action to maintain the grapple, for +2. If he opts to go All Out (Committed), he's at +6 - so your "grab and stab-stab-stab-stab" guy is at -4 or -6 to maintain the grapple compared to the "bleed out" guy - although he certainly needs to hold on for longer than his less-patient comrade.


Honestly, when it comes to sentry removal, a garrote or Choke Hold seems more the way to go than a knife. I've heard the Choke Hold route is the preferred method for today's armed forces (although this may be incorrect) - it's probably quieter, and I'm almost certain it's less disturbing than all that blood.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:16 PM   #53
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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I'm not okay with the GM's judgement defining an arbitrary duration after losing consciousness in which a character is not actually unconscious.

Houserule maybe, but you seem to prefer to define the duration as exactly long enough to make not doing things the way you prefer into a disaster.
GURPS Basic Set: Campaigns, p. 423 actually contains a rule to the effect that neither death nor unconsciousness means dropping instantly and silently. What I'm doing is applying the GM's judgment given as the rule there within the constraints of a realistic setting, by using the guidelines established for people who do this in reality.

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If you need BL 80 to do it with one arm, you need BL 40 to do it with two, don't you? Sentry removal is an ST 15 minimum activity? Also, you should evidently freely allow anyone to automatically escape most grapples by falling over.
What you can do with your whole body is BLx8 while one arm is BLx2. That means that an average person with ST 10 can hold someone with their whole body and both arms, but only a superstrong person could do it with one arm.

And if someone is willing to go prone, the grappler has a choice between letting go, following him down or keeping him upright using a multiple of BL.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Or we could suppose that holding someone uprght when they're collapsing doesn't actually require enough ST to pick them up in two seconds...
Regardless of the specific multiple of BL we pick, the weight characters can handle with one arm is 1/4th of what they can handle with both arms and whole body.

Meaning that any normal human will have trouble holding a heavy, potentially resisting human up with one arm while making a series of Attacks with the other. Which is why it's better to make the attacks before he knows you're there and switch to holding him up after you've thrust your knife into the side of his neck and cut forward, a total of 2-3 attacks in GURPS terms.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I have no idea why you think this is relevant. My strategy avoids more uncertainty...if you only make the first thrust and then hold on, as you say, you don't know how much damage you've done, and maybe it's not enough. If you keep on stabbing, you don't know how much damage you've done but it's rapidly increasing to the point where sufficiency is assured.

One stab, maybe the guy's not even seriously injured. Stab a dozen or so times and the guy is pretty definitely below zero HP. Don't trust that either, you can always keep stabbing.
Any damage above HP means that a struggling sentry will succumb to unconsciousness within a few seconds. Damage above that doesn't actually matter much to you.

Remember, the rules don't say that death comes silently, so even doing 60+ HP of damage is no guarantee that the last turn of life for the sentry won't be loud.

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In that case, you can't pull it off at all, can you? In the first second, you certainly need to assume the sentry is dangerous, but you can't use both hands to grapple unless you're planning to rip out his throat with your teeth.
Mentally stunned people can't elect to drop prone until they recover, so the first second is All-Out Attack (Double) Grapple + Thrust before the opponent gets a turn and then All-Out Attack (Double) Thrust + Cut while he's mentally stunned.

Even if he has Combat Reflexes, this happens before he can try to break free, shout, drop or fire his weapon. Obviously, this only works if you successfully sneak up to him, but that's pretty much a given. If the sentry detects you as you move into position, it's probably not going to work and your backup will have to shoot him.

Which is marginally less catastrophic if your backup has a suppressed firearm; actually making this post on topic!

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I'm not sure how, at this point, you could not get that I'm not proposing to drop the sentry before making sure, or without restraining them at all.
After the first two seconds of All-Out Attack, if you release one hand of the sentry, he's probably going to drop whether you want to or not. Not certainly, no, but the odds are too great for you to risk it.

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You can't wait until the sentry is definitely dead without the arterial bleeding houserule, because the sentry is very unlikely to die while you wait.
Fair enough. Even in GURPS RAW, though, the sentry will become unconscious at some point during your wait and he'll eventually bleed out in his coma. For your purposes, it really doesn't matter at what point he was medically dead.

I agree it's more realistic to have a rule for arterial bleeding, but it's not needed to model the fact that characters need to wait after they stab the sentry in order to be certain that they are truly incapable of making noise.

Since you were restraining him as he lost consciousness and prevented him from crying out, his death was as silent as you could make it. Killing him harder, with more HPs of damage, wouldn't accomplish that.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:57 PM   #54
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
GURPS Basic Set: Campaigns, p. 423 actually contains a rule to the effect that neither death nor unconsciousness means dropping instantly and silently. What I'm doing is applying the GM's judgment given as the rule there within the constraints of a realistic setting, by using the guidelines established for people who do this in reality.
How many times per post do I have to lay this to rest to make you stop throwing this strawman at me? It's insulting to be told over and over and over again the blatantly obvious which I have been taking as implicit and explicitly agreeing with as necessary.

You're doing considerably more than that, though. You're inserting an unspecified duration after the rules indicate death or unconsciousness in which the character can still take circumscribed action, which I cannot interact with via rules because it has no rules. And which, frankly, appears to manifest or vanish depending on whose strategy it would inconvenience.
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
What you can do with your whole body is BLx8 while one arm is BLx2. That means that an average person with ST 10 can hold someone with their whole body and both arms, but only a superstrong person could do it with one arm.
One thing you can do with both arms is BLx8, and one similar thing you can do with just one arm is BLx2. Neither of those things is keeping a limp human from collapsing. In fact, neither of those things is much like it, since the things in question are lifting an object, not holding it up.
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And if someone is willing to go prone, the grappler has a choice between letting go, following him down or keeping him upright using a multiple of BL.
Is that a rule somewhere?
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Regardless of the specific multiple of BL we pick, the weight characters can handle with one arm is 1/4th of what they can handle with both arms and whole body.

Meaning that any normal human will have trouble holding a heavy, potentially resisting human up with one arm while making a series of Attacks with the other. Which is why it's better to make the attacks before he knows you're there and switch to holding him up after you've thrust your knife into the side of his neck and cut forward, a total of 2-3 attacks in GURPS terms.
I'd argue that the whole body is not significantly less involved with one arm than with two arms for this activity.
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Any damage above HP means that a struggling sentry will succumb to unconsciousness within a few seconds. Damage above that doesn't actually matter much to you.
And if he's not damaged more than HP? "The player doesn't know if his first thrust killed the sentry, stunned him or just nicked him." More stabbing resolves that last case.
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Remember, the rules don't say that death comes silently, so even doing 60+ HP of damage is no guarantee that the last turn of life for the sentry won't be loud.
...
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Mentally stunned people can't elect to drop prone until they recover, so the first second is All-Out Attack (Double) Grapple + Thrust before the opponent gets a turn and then All-Out Attack (Double) Thrust + Cut while he's mentally stunned.

Even if he has Combat Reflexes, this happens before he can try to break free, shout, drop or fire his weapon. Obviously, this only works if you successfully sneak up to him, but that's pretty much a given. If the sentry detects you as you move into position, it's probably not going to work and your backup will have to shoot him.

Which is marginally less catastrophic if your backup has a suppressed firearm; actually making this post on topic!
Fair enough on mental stun rendering the first second safe from deliberate trouble, but it's still not so simple...

Physically stunned people can't avoid dropping prone and dropping their weapon. If you stab a guy in the neck (especially if your stab counts as three separate major wounds) before you're prepared to hold him up, something unfortunate is very likely to happen.
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
After the first two seconds of All-Out Attack, if you release one hand of the sentry, he's probably going to drop whether you want to or not. Not certainly, no, but the odds are too great for you to risk it.
I assume this is predicated on the 'you can't hold a body upright with one hand' principle?
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Fair enough. Even in GURPS RAW, though, the sentry will become unconscious at some point during your wait and he'll eventually bleed out in his coma. For your purposes, it really doesn't matter at what point he was medically dead.

I agree it's more realistic to have a rule for arterial bleeding, but it's not needed to model the fact that characters need to wait after they stab the sentry in order to be certain that they are truly incapable of making noise.

Since you were restraining him as he lost consciousness and prevented him from crying out, his death was as silent as you could make it. Killing him harder, with more HPs of damage, wouldn't accomplish that.
What killing him harder would do is force him to actually be in a state where he can no longer cry out. If you just wait 30 seconds grappling with a <0 HP sentry he's pretty sure to have failed a consciousness check as you say unless he's got amazing composure, but you have no way to be sure he's going to have actually departed that apparent middle state where he's still allowed to mess with you...

And even without that, you've got a certain number of seconds of active grappling before the resistance stops, right? Which is the dangerous part. (Well, after the sneaking up part and not botching the initial strike, at least.) Hugging the probably-dead body for a bit to be on the safe side is inconvenient but unlikely to go awry unless somebody shows up in that window. More stabbing can shorten the active phase pretty significantly, by forcing more and harder checks.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #55
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Is merely slowing down the fall with one hand (and one's body on the other side) totally unsupported by the system or something, because there is no rule for it?
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:05 PM   #56
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

The discussion about sentry removal with knives probably belongs in another thread. I keep thinking there is something new about suppressors in this thread, but nope.
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:20 PM   #57
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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You're doing considerably more than that, though. You're inserting an unspecified duration after the rules indicate death or unconsciousness in which the character can still take circumscribed action, which I cannot interact with via rules because it has no rules. And which, frankly, appears to manifest or vanish depending on whose strategy it would inconvenience.
That period is the time from when he might have failed an unconsciousness or death check until the time he certainly has.

If you don't tell the player when the sentry is unconscious, it becomes much more important to keep a grapple that prevents crying out from the probable end of mental stun until it has become fairly obvious that the sentry is not Acting, Doing Nothing or physically stunned, he is well and truly dead (or unconscious or in a coma, which is the same for the purposes of the PC in this case).

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One thing you can do with both arms is BLx8, and one similar thing you can do with just one arm is BLx2. Neither of those things is keeping a limp human from collapsing. In fact, neither of those things is much like it, since the things in question are lifting an object, not holding it up.
True enough, but I don't find it unreasonable that the same relative range of BL applies here. What you can hold up with your whole body while doing nothing else is considerably more than what you can hold up with one hand while making unpenalised Attacks (and, by default at least, being able to Dodge and Parry).

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Is that a rule somewhere?
Check Technical Grappling once it comes out for specifics, but there are rules that say that you need to be able to carry the weight of a foe to grapple him while walking or standing if he's not standing.

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I'd argue that the whole body is not significantly less involved with one arm than with two arms for this activity.
While making full-power Attacks (and being able to use Active Defences) or even All-Out Attacks (complete with being allowed to move half your Move), what your extra hand is doing is definitely not the focus. Your whole body is focused on the Maneuvers you are choosing, not the hand that happens to be still retaining a grapple.

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And if he's not damaged more than HP? "The player doesn't know if his first thrust killed the sentry, stunned him or just nicked him." More stabbing resolves that last case.
Sentry removal never involves just one Attack in GURPS terms. The ideal, as I noted, is 2-3 to some very vital areas. More than that, however, and you risk losing your grapple if the foe is not stunned or killed and you aren't really improving your odds of causing unconsciousness all that much.

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Fair enough on mental stun rendering the first second safe from deliberate trouble, but it's still not so simple...

Physically stunned people can't avoid dropping prone and dropping their weapon. If you stab a guy in the neck (especially if your stab counts as three separate major wounds) before you're prepared to hold him up, something unfortunate is very likely to happen.
I'm assuming that the sentry doesn't fall down immediately upon being struck, but collapses at the start of his first turn after failing a HT check. That seems the most straightforward interpretation of the rules that also doesn't depart from reality by having characters move at more than lightspeed toward the ground.

I admit that in allowing the classic pose of one hand grappling the face and another holding the knife in place to count as the second hand in a grapple, I'm interpreting real world events to the closest GURPS equivalent, but I think it's reasonable to say that after the stab and cut, the move toward a stationary hold is best modelled by a free action to hold the body upwards, thus allowing BLx8 in the place of BLx2 at the cost of having the knife Unready (through being stuck).

And in the next turn, the character doing the sentry removal uses his grappling skill to add a hand to the grapple, i.e. position his knife better in order to hold on while the sentry loses consciousness.

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What killing him harder would do is force him to actually be in a state where he can no longer cry out. If you just wait 30 seconds grappling with a <0 HP sentry he's pretty sure to have failed a consciousness check as you say unless he's got amazing composure, but you have no way to be sure he's going to have actually departed that apparent middle state where he's still allowed to mess with you...
There is no state where he can no longer cry out which you can realistically inflict with a knife under combat conditions. Even if you do 100 HP of damage, there might still be a dying scream.

The thing to do is to be certain that he's lost consciousness, is dying and that a fair number of seconds have elapsed since he entered his fatal coma. At that point, only a very mean GM (or Mr. Murphy in real life) would rule that he utters any significant sound as you gently lower him to the ground.

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And even without that, you've got a certain number of seconds of active grappling before the resistance stops, right? Which is the dangerous part. (Well, after the sneaking up part and not botching the initial strike, at least.) Hugging the probably-dead body for a bit to be on the safe side is inconvenient but unlikely to go awry unless somebody shows up in that window. More stabbing can shorten the active phase pretty significantly, by forcing more and harder checks.
A reasonable average damage for a fairly strong man doing a stab to the neck vein/arteries followed by a stab to the neck vein/arteries followed by a cut to the neck vein/arteries is around 30 HP.

It's true that more stabbing might get you to autokill territory, but that's a failure of GURPS rules to model reality, because in reality, wounds are not additive like that. And, even in the RAW, once the mental stun passes, it's pretty dangerous not to have both hands for the grapple, so it's a pretty big gamble to try for further stabbing after those first two seconds.

If the sentry makes the initial HT checks, he only needs to break free from a one-handed grapple in order to be able to scream or fire his weapon. Which would be bad, even if he then obligingly died in the next turn or the turn after that.
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:22 PM   #58
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The discussion about sentry removal with knives probably belongs in another thread. I keep thinking there is something new about suppressors in this thread, but nope.
I did make a point about mentioning a realistic tactical role for non-cinematic suppressors, in that a character doing sentry removal will need backup with a firearm if he is detected on his approach. And in that case, a suppressed firearm is the lesser of evils.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:20 PM   #59
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That period is the time from when he might have failed an unconsciousness or death check until the time he certainly has.

If you don't tell the player when the sentry is unconscious, it becomes much more important to keep a grapple that prevents crying out from the probable end of mental stun until it has become fairly obvious that the sentry is not Acting, Doing Nothing or physically stunned, he is well and truly dead (or unconscious or in a coma, which is the same for the purposes of the PC in this case).
It wasn't that long ago that you were saying that just because someone had failed an unconsciousness check didn't mean they couldn't keep on screaming and causing minor but disastrous problems for a while. That is the period of time I'm talking about. Has that gone away?

The period of time it takes to be reasonably sure someone has failed an unconsciousness check is either very short (nowhere close to 30 seconds) or basically infinite depending on whether you think they're quick enough to start playing dead. Your arterial bleeding rules would make 30 seconds useful. If you allow effective Diagnosis rolls on someone while grappling them from behind in the dark, while not allowing any opportunity for them to make any move while you do it, that could possibly give you something to do with the time...
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True enough, but I don't find it unreasonable that the same relative range of BL applies here. What you can hold up with your whole body while doing nothing else is considerably more than what you can hold up with one hand while making unpenalised Attacks (and, by default at least, being able to Dodge and Parry).
I'd assume here that your grappling arm or arms are going to be holding the body against yours, won't it? That gives a totally different situation from quickly yanking an object up from the ground and I don't really see that it would be the same situation. A backpack on one shoulder isn't 4 times worse than a backpack on two...
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Check Technical Grappling once it comes out for specifics, but there are rules that say that you need to be able to carry the weight of a foe to grapple him while walking or standing if he's not standing.
And that they can freely choose to drop prone while grappled?
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Sentry removal never involves just one Attack in GURPS terms. The ideal, as I noted, is 2-3 to some very vital areas. More than that, however, and you risk losing your grapple if the foe is not stunned or killed and you aren't really improving your odds of causing unconsciousness all that much.
That thing which I put in double quotes, about the subject possibly being only nicked? I put it in double quotes because you wrote it.
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I'm assuming that the sentry doesn't fall down immediately upon being struck, but collapses at the start of his first turn after failing a HT check. That seems the most straightforward interpretation of the rules that also doesn't depart from reality by having characters move at more than lightspeed toward the ground.
I'm not sure I see what the justification for 'at the start of the next turn' is, but regardless, that doesn't seem to help. They're in only a one handed grapple on both their first and second turns, and might easily fall over on either of those.
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While making full-power Attacks (and being able to use Active Defences) or even All-Out Attacks (complete with being allowed to move half your Move), what your extra hand is doing is definitely not the focus. Your whole body is focused on the Maneuvers you are choosing, not the hand that happens to be still retaining a grapple.
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I admit that in allowing the classic pose of one hand grappling the face and another holding the knife in place to count as the second hand in a grapple, I'm interpreting real world events to the closest GURPS equivalent, but I think it's reasonable to say that after the stab and cut, the move toward a stationary hold is best modelled by a free action to hold the body upwards, thus allowing BLx8 in the place of BLx2 at the cost of having the knife Unready (through being stuck).

And in the next turn, the character doing the sentry removal uses his grappling skill to add a hand to the grapple, i.e. position his knife better in order to hold on while the sentry loses consciousness.
I don't really find your maneuver interpretations balanced here.
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There is no state where he can no longer cry out which you can realistically inflict with a knife under combat conditions. Even if you do 100 HP of damage, there might still be a dying scream.

The thing to do is to be certain that he's lost consciousness, is dying and that a fair number of seconds have elapsed since he entered his fatal coma. At that point, only a very mean GM (or Mr. Murphy in real life) would rule that he utters any significant sound as you gently lower him to the ground.
Again? Okay....

The point is not to inflict so much damage that the damage precludes a scream. The point is to inflict so much damage that the subject is dead. The final scream, along with any preceding screams, is muffled exactly the same way as in the model you favor. (Mental stun definitely does not preclude screaming when someone shoves a knife into you.)
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A reasonable average damage for a fairly strong man doing a stab to the neck vein/arteries followed by a stab to the neck vein/arteries followed by a cut to the neck vein/arteries is around 30 HP.

It's true that more stabbing might get you to autokill territory, but that's a failure of GURPS rules to model reality, because in reality, wounds are not additive like that. And, even in the RAW, once the mental stun passes, it's pretty dangerous not to have both hands for the grapple, so it's a pretty big gamble to try for further stabbing after those first two seconds.

If the sentry makes the initial HT checks, he only needs to break free from a one-handed grapple in order to be able to scream or fire his weapon. Which would be bad, even if he then obligingly died in the next turn or the turn after that.
Er, wounds may not be additive like that, but you certainly can make things worse with more of them and, uh, you one paragraph up were adding up wounds so...

It's certainly true that only grappling with one hand makes the break free checks easier. On the other hand, stabbing repeatedly means that those checks will be penalized -4 for shock. I don't remember how big the one-handed penalty to keeping hold is but that's going to make up for a bit...and there may be rather fewer checks.
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:06 PM   #60
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
And that they can freely choose to drop prone while grappled?
No, when grappled, changing posture is something that you have to win a roll to do, in a new broader version of Takedown called Force Posture Change.

Technical Grappling has the following to say about positions:

Impossible Positions
If you perform any action that changes your or your opponent’s
posture or position such that a grapple is no longer
physically possible – due to reach, facing, relative facing, or
orientation – then you and your foe must release your grip(s);
see p. 00.
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