Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-21-2013, 05:09 PM   #61
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
No, when grappled, changing posture is something that you have to win a roll to do, in a new broader version of Takedown called Force Posture Change.

Technical Grappling has the following to say about positions:

Impossible Positions
If you perform any action that changes your or your opponents
posture or position such that a grapple is no longer
physically possible due to reach, facing, relative facing, or
orientation then you and your foe must release your grip(s);
see p. 00.
I'm not actually clear on whether this means that someone being grapped can choose to drop prone and, in the process, break free, or that they cannot choose to drop prone at all without taking down the other party.

(Which, in the situation being discussed, would probably require grappling them first! The grapple here is one-sided.)
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 09:55 PM   #62
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'm not actually clear on whether this means that someone being grapped can choose to drop prone and, in the process, break free, or that they cannot choose to drop prone at all without taking down the other party.

(Which, in the situation being discussed, would probably require grappling them first! The grapple here is one-sided.)
He may not choose to drop prone and break the grapple for free. He may try and drop prone, which involves a contest similar to that of a takedown. If he does succeed in dropping prone and his foe does not drop with him, the grapple will break unless his foe has unusual anatomy.

And there won't be such thing as a one-sided grapple anymore, much like Ken Clary's old article, all grapples are mutual (though the penalties inflicted are not).
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 04:58 AM   #63
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
And there won't be such thing as a one-sided grapple anymore, much like Ken Clary's old article, all grapples are mutual (though the penalties inflicted are not).
Oh my. I suspect this will play . . . interestingly . . . with the way Deathtouch, Mle Attacks, and Mle Follow-Up (on unarmed), and Auras work.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
The Eye of Eclipse Phase. A Discord server focusing on Roleplaying, Sci-Fi, Transhumanism, and discussion of other assorted topics, from tech to boardgames, from politics to philosophy.
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 09:15 AM   #64
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Oh my. I suspect this will play . . . interestingly . . . with the way Deathtouch, Mle Attacks, and Mle Follow-Up (on unarmed), and Auras work.
Eh? I won't further derail the thread (sorry for doing that in the first place), but touch is touch, and the mechanics of the above attacks are pretty straight-forward.
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 09:22 AM   #65
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Eh? I won't further derail the thread (sorry for doing that in the first place), but touch is touch, and the mechanics of the above attacks are pretty straight-forward.
Sorry, but a touch is not a touch is not a touch in GURPS, but I'll leave it at that. This is indeed even further off-topic. For silencers.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
The Eye of Eclipse Phase. A Discord server focusing on Roleplaying, Sci-Fi, Transhumanism, and discussion of other assorted topics, from tech to boardgames, from politics to philosophy.
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 11:04 AM   #66
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
For that matter, realistically, you never know that they've bled to death. You hold on at least 30 seconds and up to 2 minutes so that you can be reasonably certain that the sentry is securely unconscious at the very least.
Realistically, people drop, fully unconscious, due to any loss of blood pressure to the brain.

A typical blood choke knocks someone completely out in 3-6 seconds, depending on how well it's applied.

A throat slash which severs wind pipe and carotid arteries will drop any sentry unconscious in under a second, and the wind pipe slash makes them unable to speak while they bleed out unconsciously.

A thrust to the base of the brain through the spine, paralyses and drops the sentry unconscious, while he bleeds out.


The sentry suffers Total Surprise and in most cases gets an AoA Double by the attacker who grapples and attacks on the same turn.
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 01:59 PM   #67
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Realistically, people drop, fully unconscious, due to any loss of blood pressure to the brain.

A typical blood choke knocks someone completely out in 3-6 seconds, depending on how well it's applied.

A throat slash which severs wind pipe and carotid arteries will drop any sentry unconscious in under a second, and the wind pipe slash makes them unable to speak while they bleed out unconsciously.
Ideally, yes. Practically speaking, the process might take longer and it's best to retain a grapple for more than a second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
A thrust to the base of the brain through the spine, paralyses and drops the sentry unconscious, while he bleeds out.
If perfectly executed, it would. On the other hand, most literature on the subject discourages the practice, due to the difficulty involved. The few soldiers I've met who talk about their sentry removal training consider the method so difficult as to be more suitable for movies than reality.

As far as I know, it's not taught as part of standard doctrine in any Western military. Of course, the individual gung-ho instructor might differ, but in general, the precision and strength required is just not practical for normal people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
The sentry suffers Total Surprise and in most cases gets an AoA Double by the attacker who grapples and attacks on the same turn.
Yes. And after the initial stab, moving the knife around is another All-Out Attack (Double).

After that, however, the attacker will retain a grapple that reduces the amount of noise the sentry can make as he waits for unconsciousness to result and until he is certain that the sentry is truly out. Then he can lower him down to the ground.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 02:03 PM   #68
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Realistically, people drop, fully unconscious, due to any loss of blood pressure to the brain.

A typical blood choke knocks someone completely out in 3-6 seconds, depending on how well it's applied.

A throat slash which severs wind pipe and carotid arteries will drop any sentry unconscious in under a second, and the wind pipe slash makes them unable to speak while they bleed out unconsciously.
Both of those times are on the short end of estimates. I typically see estimates of 10-15 seconds as the low end of reliable unconsciousness from cutting off blood to the brain unless you do something really dire, and even decapitation may involve multiple seconds (evidence on this is pretty poor, however).
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 07:14 PM   #69
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Both of those times are on the short end of estimates. I typically see estimates of 10-15 seconds as the low end of reliable unconsciousness from cutting off blood to the brain unless you do something really dire, and even decapitation may involve multiple seconds (evidence on this is pretty poor, however).
For safety reasons we stop the choke at the 6 second mark, I've choked out dozens of people, many of them incredibly much stronger than me, in that 3-6 sec time frame.

I've also personally seen people do the two finger tap choke, I can't do it myself, but it drops someone either with a single or a simultaneous double tap to the carotid, that's unconsciousness in under a second, though most people start to regain consciousness even before they hit the ground.

Anecdotally, the stronger they are, and the thicker their necks, the easier it is to choke someone out, not just because the thicker neck makes it easier to apply the choke, but it's also easier to do when you're not worrying you'll break their neck accidentally.
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 06:13 AM   #70
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
...

And there won't be such thing as a one-sided grapple anymore, much like Ken Clary's old article, all grapples are mutual (though the penalties inflicted are not).
Slight tangent, how will surprise be effected, i assume 'do nothing' will mean you're not grappling back?

I currently I do it like this, PC sneaks up on sentry preferable after a couple of secs evaluate all out attacks determined & telegraphed with a one handed face grapple (which I rule stops a reflexive shout if surprise is in effect), follows with a AoA determined & telegraphed base of the skull* knife thrust while grappling the face.

Continue to wiggle the blade for a bit, but at the point any noises the sentry makes will be strictly involuntary as voluntary will no longer be an applicable term for him.


*Which I just treat as a skull hit, but I quite like the -9 no DR suggested earlier for a true pithing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
...
As far as I know, it's not taught as part of standard doctrine in any Western military. Of course, the individual gung-ho instructor might differ, but in general, the precision and strength required is just not practical for normal people.
.
I'd have thought that was more to do with the fact that its probably not going to come up very often in normal combat operations, rather than its difficulty. Not that I'm saying sentry removal is easy though. Far from it, it seems to be based on several things going right, and any one of them going wrong will screw it all up. A scenario most combat training trys to avoid, preferring redundancy in tactics.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
guns, sentry removal, suppressor

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.