Fixing Realm Magic [Thaumotology]

[AlexanderHowl]

After some debate on a previous thread, it seems to me that there must be some improvements to Realm Magic in order to make it competitive with other types of magic. As it stands right now, Ritual Path Magic seems to beat it hands down, especially when the relative CP cost is considered, but there is something there that might be worthwhile. I will offer a few ideas for fixing the system and would ask others to contribute.

I would have Realm Magic share the same type of Magery as Ritual Path Magic, with Ritual Path Magic being the lesser form and Realm Magic being the greater form (they would each use the Energy Accumulation rules from Ritual Path Magic though). Each Path would have an associated Realm, and they would share the same skill (characters that purchased the first level of a Realm though would have their Path/Realm Skill unbounded by their Thaumotology). Any character without Magic Resistance could use Ritual Path Magic, though only those with Magery could do it well, but only characters with Magery could purchase Realms. Realm Magic would use its own parameters for determining the energy cost, but the energy gathered for each accumulation roll would be multiplied by (Realm Level + 1).

So, what do you think? Would they make Realm Magic better? What other fixes would we need?

[DangerousThing]

So, for your Realm Magic, which I will call AH Realm Magic, I'm assuming that you would have the realms the same as the rpm paths?

And you'd want to calculate the costs in a similar way.

How would you determine the greater and lesser effects for the realm magic?

[AlexanderHowl]

Ritual Path Magic would have lesser and greater effects while Realm Magic would only have effects. As a 'greater' version of magic, Realm Magic would dispense of the distinction between lesser and greater effects for the mastered levels, and would use its own base and parameter costs instead of the base and parameter costs of Ritual Path Magic.

Since Realm Magic would use the same skills as Ritual Path Magic, a magician capable of using Realm Magic could instead use Ritual Path Magic if they wished, they would just lose the benefits of their Realms and their maximum skill would be limited by their Thaumotology. However, since Realm effects are limited by their level, most practitioners of Realm Magic would probably end up still using Ritual Path Magic until they mastered a Realm.

For example, let us say that there is a Path of Dreams and a Realm of Dreams (we will assume a 9 Path/Realm system with 6 levels). A magician with Dream 1 would only be able to use Realm Magic to detect dreams, but they would need to use Ritual Path Magic to do anything more interesting. A magician with Dream 3 could easily manipulate dreams and dispense of the lesser effects of Ritual Path Magic. A magician with Dream 6 would be a deity of dreams and would likely never use Ritual Magic Magic and, if they did, they would feel greviously constrained.

[DangerousThing]

How would energy gathering work, and how much energy would be required? Both for your realm version, of course.

[Devil_Dante]

I like the idea of having two different kinds of magics. For my settings, i use RPM for rituals, and because it's a fantasy settings, it's for Druid.

I'm using (or try to) Realm for standard magic: wizards.

I am not a huge fan of standardization when different mechanics come in play. Accumulate energy it's a time intensive mechanics. I'd like to see a wizard pull off a spell in a short period of time, but i understand it depends a lot from the setting you are playing in.

If you are interested, i wrote my rules for Realm Magic. But i'm lazy to translate them in english (there is always google translator thou!)

[AlexanderHowl]

I am thinking that characters would gather energy for Realm Magic just as they would for Ritual Path Magic, just that the results of their gathering rolls would be multiplied by their (Realm Level + 1). The energy required would be for a Realm effect though.

For example, if a magician with Dream 3 (from the previous example), Magery 4, and Path of Dreams-16 desired to cause direct damage within a dream, they would gain (4 x margin of success, minimum 4) energy for every successful gathering roll. Let us say that they wished to deal 10d of damage, their base cost would be 6 energy, multiplied by 10 for the damage (we will assume that the range is 0 due to the magician being in their target's dream due to a previous effect). On average, every gathering roll would accumulate 20 energy, meaning that the character would need to three rolls to create the effect.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I am thinking that characters would gather energy for Realm Magic just as they would for Ritual Path Magic, just that the results of their gathering rolls would be multiplied by their (Realm Level + 1). The energy required would be for a Realm effect though.

For example, if a magician with Dream 3 (from the previous example), Magery 4, and Path of Dreams-16 desired to cause direct damage within a dream, they would gain (4 x margin of success, minimum 4) energy for every successful gathering roll. Let us say that they wished to deal 10d of damage, their base cost would be 6 energy, multiplied by 10 for the damage (we will assume that the range is 0 due to the magician being in their target's dream due to a previous effect). On average, every gathering roll would accumulate 20 energy, meaning that the character would need to three rolls to create the effect.

well, this is an interesting approach. I hope you won't mind a few points:

1)You have to decide how parameters scale, and i think you want them all scaling with FP at this point;

2) still, 3 casts are 15 seconds of channeling. This works for you example, but again, the limit here, is the setting. In some settings, you have plenty of time to do it, in other, 3-5 secs is the limit you can afford in order to cast a spell; maybe i'm wrong, and i don't see the "full picture".

3)Sometime, the limit between a "doable" spell and "undoable" spell is just a barely question of FP: because parameters work muplying the variable (meters of radius, numbers of dice rolled, distance and so on), having a couple of parameters working togheter means you need hundreds of FP. You still need a lot of rolls and probabily, you cannot afford by yourself. With this method, you can really gather 200-300 energy with ease. And i am a bit afraid about what you can do with all tha power. If all your world works like this, imagine having such a powerfull spells from the PCs and decide how the NPCs will react! I see a lot of work to let the setting being consistent. And all non-casters are just doomed (10d because you are sleeping!!!!!!!!)

[AlexanderHowl]

Thank you for your comments. I will discuss them in order:

1) The scaling of the parameters would be according to the guidelines under Syntactic Magic in Thaumatology (pp. 179-187).

2) Since the modified Realm Magic uses the Magery rules from Ritual Path Magic, magicians would be capable of having (Thaumatology plus Magery) conditional rituals. Anyway, a level three Realm Magic spell usually takes five turns, so you would only be increasing the casting time by threefold. If the effect was relatively simple, the Energy Reserve allowed by Magery would allow for much quicker casting (one turn versus three turns).

3) I think that enforcing the effects of critical failures from Ritual Path Magic for the modified Realm Magic would limit 300 energy effects just because of the risks associated with gathering critical failures. A 'botch' effect on a gathering roll after the characters accumulated 200 energy would be quite impressive.

As for the example effect, I think requiring a Resisted Roll of Realm skill versus Will (or Dreaming) would be a good idea (since the effect is manipulating the dreams of the victim).

[DangerousThing]

How fast would realm magic be compared to rpm?

[AlexanderHowl]

Depending on the design of the Realm Magic, 2-7 times as fast for the same energy, since the energy gathered for each roll is 2-7 times as much (Realm level + 1).