Exceptional Defenses [Powers]

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by whswhs

But I don't see that there is any plausible rationale for being insubstantial with respect to a particular shape, which is what "piercing" seems to amount to.

Piercing is as much a velocity as a shape -- a 3lb ball on a stick is Cr while the same ball fired from a cannon is Pi++. Looked at that way, the OP's concept somewhat corresponds with the shields in Dune, which stop high-speed bullets but not slow knives.

I'd also consider it a power gaming thing though.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Piercing is as much a velocity as a shape -- a 3lb ball on a stick is Cr while the same ball fired from a cannon is Pi++. Looked at that way, the OP's concept somewhat corresponds with the shields in Dune, which stop high-speed bullets but not slow knives.

(a) Piercing includes damage from sharp beaks like a falcon's. Those aren't traveling at bullet speeds.

(b) However, also, the shields in Dune are clearly sources of Damage Resistance, not of Insubstantiality. They don't make bullets pass through you; they make them bounce off. The piercing limitation is already defined for DR, but it's not defined for Insubstantiality, and I don't see that it makes sense to let it be.

[Celjabba]

Supernatural powers don't have to make sense, however. It's even in the name.

I could envision settings where I would allow such powers, but in those case, it would likely be a waste of points : in a setting where I would allow that, metal-piercing attacks aren't likely to matter much.

[Plane]

To reflect someone who can be harmed in Insubstantial form by substantial substances lacking 'Affects Substantial' I think there is a precedent in GURPS Horror 52

Wendigo (Spirit Form) is a type of Haunt (H27: insubstantial) with "Vulnerability (Hot Fat x 4)" and the introductory note says "The extra damage from the Vulnerability is applied to the spirit"

So this means that intead of taking x4 damage, you would take x3 damage from hot fat. If it was merely x2 damage, the "x1 extra" would reflect going from 0% to 100% damage.

This resembles 3e's Spirits (pg 42) "The first level of Vulnerability allows the attack to affect the spirit in its spirit form"

So I guess you could take Insubstantiality at full price, but then take Vulnerability ("things that aren't metal" or "things that aren't cheese" to save points.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

he would only need Affects Substantial though if he wanted to wield piercing metal

If we look at P119's writeup, it kind of sends home just how much a built-in disadvantage "I temporarily can't carry heavy stuff around with me" is.

If suddenly this doesn't apply to all objects and only applies to metal (or only applies to cheese) then that drawback is being diminished.

In fact... the only way for insubstantial characters to carry things seems to be for them to ALSO be turned insubstantial... unless you also had something like Telekinesis allowing you to wield still-substantial objects.

The only exception might be if you had Partial Change and so you could keep a substantial hand to interact with substantial objects?

That would make the hand vulnerable to attacks though.

Limitations applied to certain things aside, how would we firstly represent the concept of an entirely insubstantial person who can walk around in a substantial suit of armor and wielding a substantial sword and shield?

Closest match I can think of is Possession with Telekinesis (Animation).

So maybe you would need that?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not think it would require Affects Substantial if we consider it logically. For example, let us say you have Insubstantiality (Limited, Cheese, -80%) [16]. It would not make any logical sense for a character to have to add Affects Substantial and have to pay 96 CP for the privilege of only being insubstantial to cheese.

As a counter-example, does that mean Insubstantiality (Limited, metal, -20%) [64] lets you put on leather gloves and start grabbing swords? Limitations should not add functionality to an advantage. I do agree that paying 96 points for being insubstantial only to cheese is a bit much, but you are still able to effect it through gloves, thrown objects, and so forth.

Of course the base [160] for insubstantial and effects objects might be a little high, but what can you do? Also, the base insubstantial maybe should have included it for the purpose of making the modifiers nice. Or maybe not, maybe we'd just see a lot more power gamer builds centered around insubstantial.

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, as for the glove example, I would rule that since the glove is being moved by an entity that is insubstantial relative to the substance in question, they could not move the item unless they had Affects Substantial. So, if a character was insubstantial to metal, they could not walk through the bars of a jail unless (a) they stripped naked, (b) had enough carrying capacity to give their possessions insubstantiality, or (c) exerted enough force to push their possessions through the bars (tearing clothing, warping armor, etc.). If a character was attempting to wield a metal weapon, their body would keep trying to pass through unless they had Affects Substantial, in which the glove trick would be quiet clever.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

for the glove example, I would rule that since the glove is being moved by an entity that is insubstantial relative to the substance in question, they could not move the item unless they had Affects Substantial.

So, if a character was insubstantial to metal, they could not walk through the bars of a jail unless
(a) they stripped naked,
(b) had enough carrying capacity to give their possessions insubstantiality,
or (c) exerted enough force to push their possessions through the bars (tearing clothing, warping armor, etc.).

If a character was attempting to wield a metal weapon, their body would keep trying to pass through unless they had Affects Substantial, in which the glove trick would be quiet clever.

"Affect Substantial" (B63) is the enhancement for Insubstantiality
"Affects Substantial" (B102) is the enhancement you need to take for advantages you want to work with it

(magic and psi seem to have it by default... which is kind of confusing since I don't see it built into the "Psi -10%" limitation...)

If you wanted to do stuff like punch substantial targets while insubstantial, you'd probably normally need to take "Affects Substantial" on "Modifying ST-Based Damage" (P146)

Not sure if that would also allow other stuff like grappling or wielding weapons...

It makes sense to still require these enhancements even with limited forms of insubstantiality, to cover the special effect of "I can move substantial things while (partially) insubstantial". Perhaps cheapening the cost slightly with "can't punch metal". Like maybe reducing the enhancement cost to 32% or 36% (-20 or -10)

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Plane

It makes sense to still require these enhancements even with limited forms of insubstantiality, to cover the special effect of "I can move substantial things while (partially) insubstantial". Perhaps cheapening the cost slightly with "can't punch metal". Like maybe reducing the enhancement cost to 32% or 36% (-20 or -10)

I sort of see, however, the original attempt was merely to make somebody immune to bullets. All the advantage did was allow bullets to pass through their body, perhaps with a special effect of bouncing off or curving around them. Unless the character was holding bullets (not cartridges or magazines) in their hands, this should have no effect on their belongings. Though perhaps and enhancement should be used to allow their carried belongings to be insubstantial also.

I wouldn't allow this in any game I'm running, though. If you want invulnerability, buy dr and injury tolerance and other things to make you avoid harm. If I want you to play superman, I'll give you a really huge bucket of points. :)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I sort of see, however, the original attempt was merely to make somebody immune to bullets.

P119's "allow the ability to become insubstantial for just an instant when exposed to damage." is basically represented as Partial Change + Reflexive + Uncontrollable, so maybe those 3 could be made into "limited enhancements" with Accessibility: Only with Metal/Cheese.

P118's Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) costing 450 to divide damage by 1000 by comparison could be reduced with something along the lines of "bullets only" (just like DR) but that would also protect against bullets w/ "affects insubstantial" enhancements (there's some rituals that can buff ammo like that) whereas reflexive insubstantiality would not.

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

All the advantage did was allow bullets to pass through their body, perhaps with a special effect of bouncing off or curving around them.

Bouncing should redirect path to possibly hit the shooter, whereas curving might mean it hits guys in side hexes instead of rear, so it mechanically might be more than a special effect in hex combat.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Plane

Bouncing should redirect path to possibly hit the shooter, whereas curving might mean it hits guys in side hexes instead of rear, so it mechanically might be more than a special effect in hex combat.

It's a special effect, so it wouldn't bounce that way. Or those that bounced back wouldn't hit anybody.

But as I said, I wouldn't allow Insubstantial to be used that way in my games. I do, however, remember a time when Insubstantial was the recommended way of producing invulnerability.