Life mirrors gurps

[Exeter]

This is one of the unfortunate parts of having a system like GURPS available that can model just about anything in an elegant way. I've heard the same thing said by HERO players about their game. And, yes, I do it too, sometimes. :-) (But I don't ever remember doing it back before I discovered GURPS. The games I played back then just weren't up to the task.)

Related to this: how many people statted themselves out as an exercise when first learning GURPS? And how many of you were disappointed at your point total? :-) I seem to remember myself coming in at somewhere around 25 CP in 3e terms. (Or was it -25 CP? Heh.)

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There's a very good case for defining Fast-Draw as a cinematic skill*, much like Breaking Blow.

Color me skeptical.

If people could be taught to routinely draw weapons so quickly that their accuracy did not suffer compared to someone who already had the weapon in hand, this skill would be taught to policemen.

First, policemen are taught to draw their weapon quickly and second, even skilled users of Fast-Draw will lose out to a guy who already has a weapon in hand.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

First, policemen are taught to draw their weapon quickly and second, even skilled users of Fast-Draw will lose out to a guy who already has a weapon in hand.

But their training emphasises the fact that only in movies does this work reliably and well enough for it to make sense to be anywhere near dangerous situations without their weapon in hand.

Also note that the man with his weapon out and ready is able to place an equal number of shots with the same accuracy in his target as his counterpart who has to perform a Fast-Draw. Needless to say, few realistic* people can reproduce this performance in the field.

*But as already stipulated, there are people who can do it under controlled circumstances and without the threat of real danger.

[Fwibos]

Depends: I suffer from a debilitating mental condition by which I sometimes thing much less of myself than is true, and sometimes think much more highly of myself than is true. So when I stat my self it can go anywhere from 100 points to -107 points.

The only thing I usually give myself is IQ +1 and Talent: Gifted Artist (If there where a Talent that combined Philosophy, Artist, and Poetry, I'd take that instead) And incompetence: Typing and Swimming (I know I type like a retarded third-grader, I usually take extra time to type and edit my work to avoid errors. And I can't swim and have a hard time learning)

As for stating real people, i find that most people wouldn't even rate most of the disadvantages, which are positively crippling at -10 points or higher. They may do well for adventures, but a normal human with any number of real disadvantages would be sunk. Even the self-limiting vows like Honesty, I don't really think people have that restrictive a limitation. the most honest person I know tries to follow the laws, and he may have honesty. He certainly gets a -1 reaction from me and a lot of people as "weird about honesty."

Although to be fair, Cowardice might be very common in our world. It rarely comes up as a 1st world problem.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But their training emphasises the fact that only in movies does this work reliably and well enough for it to make sense to be anywhere near dangerous situations without their weapon in hand.

I think you're picking on a straw-man. Clearly, fast-draw is an important element of all forms of combat training. The guy who fumbles with his holster dies while the guy with the smooth draw survives. Drawing a weapon quickly and smoothly is vital.

The worst you can say about the GURPS Fast-Draw system is that it makes concessions for playability. If we were to depict it completely realistically, we'd need several changes. First: Fast-Draw is binary in GURPS when it's a sliding scale in real life. In GURPS, you've either drawn your weapon "instantly" or you haven't. This is because GURPS doesn't do "split second" turns. In reality, you're shaving time off your draw, trying to get your weapon out before he does, or trying to get your weapon out fast enough that you can fire in that split second before he recovers from the shock of seeing you and fires. Second, in GURPS, if you fail your Fast-Draw, you know. Nobody fires after a failed fast-draw. You're not even allowed to (your weapon is "unready")/ In real life, that's less true, and people might start squeezing the trigger before the weapon is in a full and ready position (explaining some of the drop in accuracy). Finally, real life probably has a sliding scale of "readiness" that GURPS does not. There's "I don't even have my hand on my gun," there's "I've got my hand on my guns but it's in the holster," there's "I've got the gun partially out of the holster" there's "I've got the gun mid-air but not stabilized to fire" and there's "Ready," and there's all the points in between. You might be able to fire a gun "mid-air but unstabilized" and still hit someone. In GURPS, I'd assess a -2 or -3 penalty or so, and this probably explains the drop in accuracy as well.

But these realities are very difficult to emulate in GURPS. The Fast-Draw rules in Martial Arts help, but they really only cover specific situations. However, given the limitations of the system, Fast-Draw still covers a legitimate and very real aspect of combat training and readiness. To call it "cinematic" would be akin to calling GURPS's injury system "cinematic."

[Miles]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But their training emphasises the fact that only in movies does this work reliably and well enough for it to make sense to be anywhere near dangerous situations without their weapon in hand.

Because your real-life cop very probably has Dexterity 9-12 if we're being generous, certainly doesn't have Combat Reflexes, and most likely doesn't have more than one point in fast-draw. At best, he'll succeed on his fast draw roll 75% of the time, and the average is probably closer to 55%. That's not reliable, so cops are trained to draw their weapons before entering a potentially hostile situation.

Obviously, Fast-Draw does have cinematic elements when you're using it in GURPS, because GURPS isn't granular enough to simulate an action that takes a fraction of a second, and it errs on the side of the heroes. At it's core however, it's not a cinematic skill.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I think you're picking on a straw-man. Clearly, fast-draw is an important element of all forms of combat training. The guy who fumbles with his holster dies while the guy with the smooth draw survives. Drawing a weapon quickly and smoothly is vital.

The 1-second Ready maneuver that GURPS has all characters be capable of without a roll under life-and-death conditions is actually far closer to the time that realistic people take to open a holster, unsheathe the gun and move it to a firing position. Fast-Draw, as written, replaces this realistic speed draw (which should, of course, require a roll) with effectively instant draw.

That's the cinematic part. Effectively instant draw exists, of course, but as far as I'm aware, only as a form of sport or art (where a healthy positive TDM can be expected), not as part of realistic combat training.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Miles

Because your real-life cop very probably has Dexterity 9-12 if we're being generous, certainly doesn't have Combat Reflexes, and most likely doesn't have more than one point in fast-draw. At best, he'll succeed on his fast draw roll 75% of the time, and the average is probably closer to 55%. That's not reliable, so cops are trained to draw their weapons before entering a potentially hostile situation.

Obviously, Fast-Draw does have cinematic elements when you're using it in GURPS, because GURPS isn't granular enough to simulate an action that takes a fraction of a second, and it errs on the side of the heroes. At it's core however, it's not a cinematic skill.

Even the most highly trained commandos, men who'd certainly qualify for dozens of points in shooting skills based on training time (not to mention Combat Reflexes), are not encouraged to believe that they can ever expect to become quick enough so that it makes no difference whether their guns are in their hands or not when they spot a threat.

In GURPS, however, spending only a few points on Fast-Draw effectively has that result for the typical combatant. Is that not cinematic?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The 1-second Ready maneuver that GURPS has all characters be capable of without a roll under life-and-death conditions is actually far closer to the time that realistic people take to open a holster, unsheathe the gun and move it to a firing position. Fast-Draw, as written, replaces this realistic speed draw (which should, of course, require a roll) with effectively instant draw.

So require several ready maneuvers to draw a weapon, and a single ready maneuver with Fast-Draw (and perhaps an instant draw at -10). I'm not interested in quibbling over the times involved. Rather, I'm arguing that a skill that represents a fast, smooth draw very much has a place in a realistic game setting.

[laguna]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

So require several ready maneuvers to draw a weapon, and a single ready maneuver with Fast-Draw (and perhaps an instant draw at -10). I'm not interested in quibbling over the times involved. Rather, I'm arguing that a skill that represents a fast, smooth draw very much has a place in a realistic game setting.

if you were to have a non-cinematic game, and you wanted to figure out who was a faster draw between two characters, couldn't you just nix the fast draw skill and operate off of basic speed?

or if you wanted to put a dice roll in it, quick contest of DX with a +1 given for every .25 pt basic speed advantage a player has. or just a straight quick contest of weapon skill.

I mean, I'm a little out of place in this argument, seeing as how I have no idea why one would WANT a realistic campaign, but no, instantaneous quick-draw is not realistic. if an enemy has you "dead to rights", he should realistically ALWAYS have the first shot if you try to quick-draw.