[DF] Summoned allies questions:

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This seems counterintuitive enough to me to warrant a FAQ entry or even errata in GURPS Powers and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 5 and 9, which IIRC give the duration as "until dismissed".

Yeah, this seems like some ad-hoc default answer that does not exactly fit the trait.

Anyway, the answer 'ally duration equals to the amount of time that must pass between re-rolling Chance of Appearance' seems reasonable enough, as long as it is roughly comparable to a single adventure/major quest/etc. If all else fails, Once Per Day seems reasonable (isn't it in fact the default re-roll cooldown for Summonables?).

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

1 minute is the basic assumed time for one combat, near enough. Obviously most are shorter, and some can be longer, but when something says "once per combat" it often is built with "once per minute" as its time limit - thus in long combat scenes it does reset.

Of cause, for a summonable ally, nothing stops you just re-summoning them whenever you need them - like, say, at the start of the next combat. Plus, its only a "technically the rules say this" answer - it can easily be invoked to prevent a player from rolling once and never dismissing, but nothing stops you overlooking it for players who play fair.

I understand that - but for 10 points, my ally can assist me for the entire adventure, for 20, I can summon him to assist me for 1 minute. Allies have non-combat applications as well - many of which take more than a minute! Do I have to re-summon an earth elemental 120 time to get him to do 2 hours worth of work? that's an awful lot of rolls hoping to get below your target for paying double the standard cost!

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Once Per Day seems reasonable (isn't it in fact the default re-roll cooldown for Summonables?).

Once per day isn't a duration, it's a frequency, and it goes against RPKs ruling earlier on this thread.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

For one that you can literally conjure out of thin air, you roll every time you summon it. (Powers clarifies this some.)

//

Then you can summon it again. You can summon, dismiss, summon, dismiss, etc., as much as you want until you fail that summoning roll. Then you're out for a day.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Danukian

Once per day isn't a duration, it's a frequency, and it goes against RPKs ruling earlier on this thread.

The point was basing the maximum summoning duration based on the frequency of summoning re-rolls allowed (on a failure). It seems more reasonable than 10 seconds or a minute, given that Summonable is +100%.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The point was basing the maximum summoning duration based on the frequency of summoning re-rolls allowed (on a failure). It seems more reasonable than 10 seconds or a minute, given that Summonable is +100%.

In the spinoff thread RPK says the duration is one adventure, just like unmodified Ally. I don't see a reason to expect Summonable to change that.

[Kromm]

If you can summon an Ally with a Concentrate maneuver whenever you need it, as long as it hasn't died, then one minute is more than fair. It's basically a "conjure pet" spell that costs no FP, lasts as long as any other combat spell, and has a significant effect on battle. You're trading duration for the capacity to repeat attempts.

If you can summon an Ally once per adventure, as usual with an Ally, and it hangs around until dismissed, then that's fine, too. You're trading off reliability (the roll for it can fail, and if it does, you get nothing out of the advantage for one full dungeon crawl or whatever) and surprise (you can't spring "Oh, and there's a huge demon behind you!" on baddies in combat) for duration.

Just don't try to justify both. It's either a spell-like thing or a social advantage with a significant meta-game aspect to it ("once per adventure").

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

Plus, its only a "technically the rules say this" answer

Just so, which is why I worded my answer the way I did (doing what I do for a living, I choose my qualifiers carefully!). In the last campaign I ran, Allies like this could be called on once per adventure, and if they were, they hung around all adventure. One big advantage of Summonable was that such Allies didn't have to be fed or sheltered on the way to/from interesting places, and could be conjured up right next to the Big Bad without having to trek all the way there, making Climbing rolls to go up the fortress walls, Stealth rolls to get inside, etc. The other was that if the Ally died, it was merely banished until next summoned, one adventure down the road. This interpretation suited the campaign quite well.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In the spinoff thread RPK says the duration is one adventure, just like unmodified Ally. I don't see a reason to expect Summonable to change that.

Apparently my idea of it being One Day comes from Powers, where this is the cooldown after a Summonable Ally dies.
I'm okay with rolls and durations being on a Per-Adventure basis too. Summonable is too prone to GM interpretation already*, so it's not like such variations are going to make it worse in any sense.

* == 'The GM determines how long it takes summoned beings to appear', as per P41.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If you can summon an Ally with a Concentrate maneuver whenever you need it, as long as it hasn't died, then one minute is more than fair. It's basically a "conjure pet" spell that costs no FP, lasts as long as any other combat spell, and has a significant effect on battle. You're trading duration for the capacity to repeat attempts.

What about the per day frequency? If you fail any of those rolls are't you blocked for one day?

If you can summon an Ally once per adventure, as usual with an Ally, and it hangs around until dismissed, then that's fine, too. You're trading off reliability (the roll for it can fail, and if it does, you get nothing out of the advantage for one full dungeon crawl or whatever) and surprise (you can't spring "Oh, and there's a huge demon behind you!" on baddies in combat) for duration.

What makes Summonable or Conjured worth the cost here? A normal Ally can generally also appear at the start of the adventure. Surely it at least allows the "huge demon behind you" trick.

Just don't try to justify both. It's either a spell-like thing or a social advantage with a significant meta-game aspect to it ("once per adventure").

The way that I thought Summonable (and Conjured) worked was that you could roll whenever you chose to summon (or conjure) and if you succeeded the ally stuck around for the adventure or until dismissed. If you failed you had to wait a day before trying again. Was I wrong?

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

• What about the per day frequency? If you fail any of those rolls are't you blocked for one day?

• What makes Summonable or Conjured worth the cost here? A normal Ally can generally also appear at the start of the adventure. Surely it at least allows the "huge demon behind you" trick.

• The way that I thought Summonable (and Conjured) worked was that you could roll whenever you chose to summon (or conjure) and if you succeeded the ally stuck around for the adventure or until dismissed. If you failed you had to wait a day before trying again. Was I wrong?

Exactly this.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What about the per day frequency? If you fail any of those rolls are't you blocked for one day?

Obviously, if you fail, you're stuck with the terms of the modifier: wait a day. I was merely pointing out that if you don't fail, you can keep resummoning if you interpret the advantage as being spell-like. And of course "you can try every day" is still a significant improvement over "you can try every adventure" in just about all cases. I'd argue that's worth the price of admission all on its own in a campaign that regularly features month-long expeditions as adventures.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What makes Summonable or Conjured worth the cost here?

The above consideration (infinite attempts to summon until you fail one, plus at most a day's delay if you do fail, vs. one attempt per adventure) if you go with the spell-like reading, plus in all interpretations, the convenience of an Ally that doesn't require provisioning, a horse, or a berth on the ship, that's invisible in a way that no enemy scout can detect, and that doesn't produce any noise or reaction penalties until you make it appear right next to the Faerie Queen with a spear to her head.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

A normal Ally can generally also appear at the start of the adventure. Surely it at least allows the "huge demon behind you" trick.

Summonable Allies can be conjured up whenever/wherever you like, yes. Sorry if I implied otherwise.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The way that I thought Summonable (and Conjured) worked was that you could roll whenever you chose to summon (or conjure) and if you succeeded the ally stuck around for the adventure or until dismissed. If you failed you had to wait a day before trying again. Was I wrong?

No. My point was that many gamers prefer the "conjured pets" view from CRPGs and MMORPGs. If that's what you're doing, and you can just call/dismiss as often as needed until you fail a roll (usually 15 or less when you're into this sort of stuff, so not likely), then it's only fair to set a combat duration. If you're gambling on not having the Ally for an entire adventure if you fail, then getting it for an entire adventure if you succeed is fairer. However, even at +100%, "I can conjure my Ally as often as I want per adventure, and it lasts for as long as I want" is overpowered.