[DF] Summoned allies questions:

[Bruno]

Worked example time; I think better with something concrete in front of me.

My infernal scout in Crakerjakk's DF game has a hawk "familiar" (Summonable Ally as per DF5 but no special keen hawk powerz).

Ally (Hawk Familiar; 25% of starting points, Constantly; Summonable; Sympathy (Death of one party reduces other to 0HP)) [8 pts] and Special Rapport [5] But depending on how my GM rules, I might have to rebuild. So here's how it might look rebuilding in accordance with Kromm's ruling, above.

A Constantly available 25% ally has a base cost of 4 points, because Frequency of Appearance is a multiplier, not a modifier.

Summonable is +100%; going from 1 minute to 1 day is x1440 which might as well be Permanent +150%. Sympathy is -25%.

13 points.

I'd suggest putting the Extended Duration on Summonable directly, but that doesn't actually change the cost so its sort of academic.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I think the passage emphasized in the text I quoted clearly changes the one-appearance per adventure aspect.

No it does not. It clearly changes the condition for making the Ally appear, but it makes no reference what so ever to how many times the Ally will appear.

no-one I have ever heard of thought otherwise until this thread.

The one-appearance per adventure interpretation would make it way too expensive, and leaves a gaping hole in the rules for the many kinds of character who have allies they can summon at will.

An FoA 6- Summonable Ally costs the same as an FoA 9- Ally; the second appears for 37.5% of the time. After 5 attempts (days), the former has the same chance of appearing, with additional benefits.
9- Summonable vs 12-, also cost the same, and the former's appearance chance is the same after just 3 days.

So you've traded a few extra days to summon, for not having to have them around for the trek through the jungle, scaling the cliffs of doom, or sneaking past the army of shadows, so you can get them when you need them, and, you can keep trying to summon them every day you're stuck in the evil dictators prison. That seems a reasonable trade?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Worked example time; I think better with something concrete in front of me.

My infernal scout in Crakerjakk's DF game has a hawk "familiar" (Summonable Ally as per DF5 but no special keen hawk powerz).

Ally (Hawk Familiar; 25% of starting points, Constantly; Summonable; Sympathy (Death of one party reduces other to 0HP)) [8 pts] and Special Rapport [5] But depending on how my GM rules, I might have to rebuild. So here's how it might look rebuilding in accordance with Kromm's ruling, above.

A Constantly available 25% ally has a base cost of 4 points, because Frequency of Appearance is a multiplier, not a modifier.

Summonable is +100%; going from 1 minute to 1 day is x1440 which might as well be Permanent +150%. Sympathy is -25%.

13 points.

I'd suggest putting the Extended Duration on Summonable directly, but that doesn't actually change the cost so its sort of academic.

Try a Small Earth Elemental (GURPS Magic p 55) + Permeation (Earth; Tunneling +40%; Extended (Stone and Metal), +40%) [72] + Control 3 (Earth) [60] for 172, That's an 75% ally in DF.

Let's say Almost always (15 -) that is a Summable + 100%, Minion, +50% Would cost our Summoner [23].

Under the 'Common Interpretation' you could summon the guy every night to prepare the camping sight defensively and keep watch, and Risk it in battle. The send it away in the morning.

Under the 'Classical Interpretation' you can do that once per adventure that it gone when you dismiss.

'Spell-like Interpretation' Well you're kinda can't use it out of combat because well 1 minute and the next one not knowing what the last had done... kind stops it from building the site.

So , Constantly , That Requires an IQ Roll -10%, Extended duration (1,000 minutes) +120% so that it can make can keep a night watch that is a Summable + 100%, Minion, +50% Would cost our Summoner [44].

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Danukian

I see your point, honest, but as an ACTUAL spell, Summon Elemental/Demon/Planar has a duration of 1 hour for much cheaper.

As long as you ignore the fatigue costs and the investment in prereqs.

[Flyndaran]

Screw that point sink. I'd just make Claude the earth elemental my always there ally... or he can just hide in the dirt when I have company. He's humble like that.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

As long as you ignore the fatigue costs and the investment in prereqs.

Buy Homegrown Demonolgist or Charm (Elemental Summoning) for 1 point, as I stated. And, yes, I understand summoning isn't as ideal as an Ally, I was using it for a comparison vs. "spell-like interpretation".

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by SCAR

No it does not. It clearly changes the condition for making the Ally appear, but it makes no reference what so ever to how many times the Ally will appear.

I guess we disagree.

It REPLACES the roll at the beginning of the adventure, with the ability to conjure your Ally.

It does not say, anything remotely like 'instead of at the beginning of the adventure you may choose to summon your ally at a time of your choice'.

So you've traded a few extra days to summon, for not having to have them around for the trek through the jungle, scaling the cliffs of doom, or sneaking past the army of shadows, so you can get them when you need them, and, you can keep trying to summon them every day you're stuck in the evil dictators prison. That seems a reasonable trade?

Not even close. NOT having your ally around is only situationally beneficial. In fact, the whole concept of the FoA roll constraint is that it's valuable for the ally to actually be there rather than be absent.

And there's still the point that this interpretation thwarts a very common kind of ally-relationship seen in fiction.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Even just making the time to around 24 hours makes it feel like a spell.

I meant if you made the Extended Duration 24 hours long it would feel like a spell.

And yes, roguebfl, that is how I'd do it. It makes perfect sense and puts the value of the summon about right. Although, I'd probably go with Conjurable for flavor reasons (same cost).

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I guess we disagree.

Not entirely. If you read my original post:

Originally Posted by SCAR

I would agree that wording does not explicitly disallow your interpretation, but expecting a set of game rules to tie down every possible interpretation is expect too much.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

It REPLACES the roll at the beginning of the adventure, with the ability to conjure your Ally.

It does not say, anything remotely like 'instead of at the beginning of the adventure you may choose to summon your ally at a time of your choice'.

It also does not say ' you may choose to summon your ally as many times as you wish'.

I'm being very clear on what the text does say (replacing a single FoA roll at the beginning of the adventure with the choice to roll when you want, repeating each day if you fail). You're adding something you assume is a reasonable interpretation of what is written, (summoning the ally multiple times per 'adventure').

Anyway, my point is that the rules as written do not 'clearly' match your interpretation, neither do they 'clearly' disagree. There is a possible ambiguity.

Kromm has made it clear what the official interpretation is supposed to be, and you really can't argue with the Author and Line Editor on how the rules are supposed to work. He has also offered an alternative ruling which he considers a fair alternative, and supports the 'very common kind of ally-relationship seen in fiction' you want to support.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Not even close. NOT having your ally around is only situationally beneficial. In fact, the whole concept of the FoA roll constraint is that it's valuable for the ally to actually be there rather than be absent.

The assumption is that having the ally around is primarily a benefit (that's why it's an Advantage), but there can be downsides, "An Ally may even cause problems for you: picking fights, landing in jail, insulting a high noble", and as someone else pointed out earlier, if the Ally is with you, they must also make Climbing, Stealth, etc rolls when required - giving a chance of failure and consequences.

Not having your Ally around when you don't need them is useful; as I pointed out - your party gets capture by the evil dictator, stripped of all their gear, and thrown into a mana-drained prison to rot. If you're Ally had been with you, then they're in there too - a Summonable Ally who wasn't with you could be summoned (possibly after a couple of days) to rescue you!

[gjc8]

If you "send away" a Regular Ally, without Summonable, they're still available for the rest of the adventure, right? Subject, of course, to your ability to actually contact them and their ability to actually get to you and/or provide aid remotely.

You roll at the beginning of the adventure to see if your brother (or whatever) is available, and this time he is. But then you have to break into the palace or something, and you leave your brother behind because he lacks Stealth skill. Classic case of leaving an Ally behind so he doesn't cause problems for you. But he doesn't cease to be available for the rest of the adventure. If you get captured and thrown in prison, and you need to coordinate with someone on the outside for a jailbreak, he's available, provided you can bribe a guard or something to get a message to him. Right?