My adjusted Armor Tables

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

If the 'bronze helmet' is intended to be a Corinthian style hoplite helmet, I'd give it more DR and a higher cost, plus add the 'No Peripheral Vision' disadvantage.

I actually haven't got a clue what kind of helmet that's supposed to be. I ended up just tweaking it to be in line with everything else and otherwise kept the existing statistics because I didn't want to monkey with it too much.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

The legionary helm should probably only offer partial protection to the face. Not sure what style the leather helm is, but I'd guess it's something simlar (cheek guards and possibly a nasal), so the same thing applies to it as well.

How partial are we talking about? 5-6 on a d6?

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

I'd probably simplify the felt and leather caps to a simple 'sturdy hat' with the same stats as the current leather cap. There is a large range of slightly protective headgear throughout history and this entry could cover a lot of them.

True, and this handwaves past the issue of straw/wicker/whatever.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

A reinforced leather helmet without any face protection seems to be an obvious item missing from the list.

Cloth or leather coifs would be historical and add a handy option for neck protection.

*facepalm* of course. And considering that my players have been jumping up and down for neck protection I should have thought of that.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Is a seperate face mask a real historical item? I'd call it a visor and note that it needs to be attached to a helmet of some kind.

Common enough in iron-age asia (esp. Japan), although often worn with a proper helmet. I like keeping it separate because masks, frankly, are cool; with a DF game in mind, coolness is an important factor. It also makes a good base for magic items, of course.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

The barrel helm and the greathelm should probably give the 'Hard of Hearing' disadvantage as well.

I ALMOST put that on the notes, and then I chickened out >.>

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Mail should probably use it's lower DR against burning, corrosion and indeed pretty much everything except cutting and impaling damage.

That's pretty likely, although my players will probably whine at me about that.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Plenty of mail sleeves only extend as far as the elbow. I'd offer an option for half-sleeves which only protect on a 1-3 at a bit over half the usual weight and cost.

Combine with the long gauntlets and you almost have full arm protection. I like.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

You have a bunch of 'leather' items listed as TL 0, but I thought that proper leather (as opposed to hides and skins) was TL 1. Even if leather can be made at TL 0, leather gloves seem like they shouldn't be available until TL 1.

Leather definitely can be made at TL 0, although TL0 leather may be slightly more vulnerable to the elements (up for debate). I don't know about the gloves being TL 1 or 0, as a clothing technology. I'm not sure anyone does, unfortunately.

Of the two TL0 cultures that I'm most familiar with (Canadian Inuit, and Australian Aborigines) neither used gloves pre-contact, but that's because in the Arctic gloves just aren't good enough and you need mittens, and in Australia, that much clothing is stupid. The aborigines skipped armor technology in general, actually - not sure if any of their cultures even had shields.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Armbands and greaves should probably be available in leather and splint (leather reinforced with metal strips, probably using the same stats as light scale) as well as metal.

Agreed as per using light scale (or possibly heavy scale...) for "generic leather and hard bits".

And actually, going crazy with the greaves would be good for getting the weight of the sollerets down.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Some cloth armour was sturdier than heavy leather. I don't think it's unreasonable to list a 'heavy cloth' with DR 2 (or more) as an option for body armour.

I'm probably going to end up going with Dan's suggestion below, or even put DR 1-4 leather items on the list, and offer Cloth as a DF-style upgrade.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Mittens (and possibly gauntlets) should probably give some level of the Ham Fisted disadvantage.

That's one that I also almost put down on the chart. I'll have a chat with my group, but I don't think they'd burn me at the stake for it...

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

It would be handy if gauntlets, boots, etc. noted if they gave +1 punching or kicking damage.

As far as I know, all of them do except possibly sandals, and even those might.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

You list 'chain' mittens and gauntlets rather than 'mail'. What's the difference? Were mail (or chain) gauntlets actually used historically? I was under the impression that all mail hand armour was basically in the form of mittens.

Chain vs mail = brainfart on my part. I blame too much D&D for causing those to be interchangeable terms.

Mittens vs gloves vs gauntlets: Dan mentions he's restoring a pair of hybrid mail gloves, which is cool, I did not know that. The gauntlets, I have NO idea if those are ahistorical or not, but I'm leaving them in anyways because I'm running a DF game, the technology isn't particularly a stretch, and apparently my players think the arm protection on gauntlets is pretty cool.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

'Boots' covers a lot of ground. Many boots should probably only offer DR 1 to the upper foot. I'm suprised you didn't include an option for long boots with partial leg protection.

I'm actually surprised about that myself, now that you point out the obvious.

I was thinking about it a little bit when I was looking at the "Boots", but I owned a pair of heavy workboots that were only ankle length and definitely were as tough on the tops as they were on the bottoms, so I basically said "meh" and went on with things.

That said, I've also owned a pair of police boots, which were tough as hell on the bottom, but probably only as tough as a pair of Dock Martins on the top. Fabulous ankle support, though, and I sounded like a police raid when I went charging down the stairs in them.

I should go look at High Tech and see what they've got for boots and shoes, too.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Remove all bronze items from the list. From a performance perspective they are indistinguishable from their iron equivalents. Just add a note that increases the price of bronze armour and make them TL1 instead of TL2-3.

I did try to keep them in the same DR-per-pound range as Iron, and more expensive (Based on earlier comments by yourself on the issue), but that would be a simpler option... *pokes at things a little*

While I've got your attention and we're on the subject, can bronze be drawn into wire at all at TL1-3? Is it just too brittle to work, or merely frustratingly hard? I know it wasn't, historically, made into mail, but when you're potentially dealing with dwarvish smiths, gnomish technicians, and monsters or magicians or giant rare earth magnets, these things make you think.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Mail gloves existed. They consisted of a cloth or leather glove with mail stitched on to the back of the hand and fingers. atm I'm in the middle of a reconstruction of a 16th century example in the MET.

Aha! I did not know that - I'd assumed that a mail glove would be too much, but didn't think of hybrids. DR 1-ish on the palm, 4/2* on the back, if wielding something assume it hits the back, 50-50 chances when it seems random? Sound decent?

Do they only go up to the wrist-ish? I'll probably make "Gauntlet" stats anyways, as per my comment above.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Pound for pound, cloth offers better protection than leather - even rigid leather. The easiest way to handle it is to have a range of cloth and leather armours ranging from DR 1 up to DR 4. Ensure that the leather version weighs a little more than the cloth one of the same DR. Cloth armour is more expensive since it requires much more of the raw material (10-25 layers) to make armour compared to leather (1-4 layers).

Arg, I have that relationship backwards then, in both weight and cost. *facepalm*

RE cost: More raw material, more fussy construction involved once you have more raw material, raw material potentially being irritating to create...

OK, how's this: I'll kitbash together leather armor in the DR 1-4 range (btw, leather fetishist PCs everywhere rejoice) and make "Cloth" an upgrade. Pulling a random number out of my hat, how's +25% cost for -10% weight sound? Too much, too little, totally wrong?

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by Bruno

How partial are we talking about? 5-6 on a d6?

Depends on the helmet, of course, but I'd say more like 3-6. Personally, I'd like to keep partial armour as always being 1-3 or 4-6 to minimise book-keeping, but you have already got more complex than that.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I'm probably going to end up going with Dan's suggestion below, or even put DR 1-4 leather items on the list, and offer Cloth as a DF-style upgrade.

Dans the expert, but I'm skeptical of DR 4 cloth or leather. Metal armour is much more expensive than cloth or leather, which strongly suggests that it is also much better given how popular it was.

I'd also note that cloth armour should probably be ablative to burning (and possibly cutting) damage.

Originally Posted by Bruno

While I've got your attention and we're on the subject, can bronze be drawn into wire at all at TL1-3? Is it just too brittle to work, or merely frustratingly hard? I know it wasn't, historically, made into mail...

I seem to recall Dan previously saying that bronze can be drawn into wire and that there are a few medieval examples of bronze rings used as decoration in otherwise iron mail. I think he said that mail could be made at TL 1, but it just wasn't due to nobody thinking of it.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Dans the expert, but I'm skeptical of DR 4 cloth or leather. Metal armour is much more expensive than cloth or leather, which strongly suggests that it is also much better given how popular it was.

Villani wrote that 4 layers of leather were able to resist most threats on the battlefield. Any material can be made into armour of any DR so long as it is thick enough. A DR 4 iron breastplate is about a quarter the weight of a leather one with the same DR. I would put rawhide at TL0 but tanned leather at TL1.

I seem to recall Dan previously saying that bronze can be drawn into wire and that there are a few medieval examples of bronze rings used as decoration in otherwise iron mail. I think he said that mail could be made at TL 1, but it just wasn't due to nobody thinking of it.

Mail is definitely TL2 but there are Persian mail shirts made entirely of bronze dating to the 6th century AD.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Dans the expert, but I'm skeptical of DR 4 cloth or leather. Metal armour is much more expensive than cloth or leather, which strongly suggests that it is also much better given how popular it was.

"Better" doesn't necessarily mean "more protective". There are other things to consider - lighter for the same protection, easier to repair is another, smells less and doesn't harbor lice or ticks, all of which I believe are the case for metal armor over cloth and leather.

Possible factors that I'm less sure about would be:
* ease of storage - metal armor rusts, but cloth and leather rot and can be eaten by vermin.
* better weight distribution - obviously doesn't apply to chain, but a hard breastplate of metal vs leather may be more friendly to fine tuning how the weight sits, making it less obnoxious to wear.
* depending on climate and design of armor, the metal armor may be more comfortable.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Villani wrote that 4 layers of leather were able to resist most threats on the battlefield. Any material can be made into armour of any DR so long as it is thick enough. A DR 4 iron breastplate is about a quarter the weight of a leather one with the same DR. I would put rawhide at TL0 but tanned leather at TL1.

Tanned leather armor, vs tanned leather? Tanning with brains, and I think some kinds of vegetable tanning are TL 0, at least as per Lowtech. Mind you, I'm perfectly comfortable with rating the Inuit as advanced in leatherworking - they certainly had a LOT of incentive to develop what materials they had as much as possible.

Good to know regarding the breastplate weight, that's going to help me with my numbers a lot.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Mail is definitely TL2 but there are Persian mail shirts made entirely of bronze dating to the 6th century AD.

Excellent. So I don't need to invoke fantasytech to have a bronze mail shirt, just astronomical costs. Bonus: Bronze items can be made into orichalcum items, as per Dungeon Fantasy, so now I have a benchmark for soaking my players for orichalcum mail :D

[ArmoredSaint]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As near as I can tell, Steve Jackson was the original source for the Gurps armor weights (probably dating to his SCA experience in the 80s) and he appears to still be convinced of their accuracy.

This is reading between the lines from second-party communications. I've never seen a direct message from him but Kromm has said in communications about the subject that SJ considers his (undisclosed) sources unimpeachable .

I'm not sure about that. A brief e-mail exchange I had with Mr. Jackson on this subject years ago indicated that he was indeed open to the possibility that he might have been wrong. I just don't think that he gives the matter much thought or regards changing those incorrect weights as very important.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Villani wrote that 4 layers of leather were able to resist most threats on the battlefield. Any material can be made into armour of any DR so long as it is thick enough. A DR 4 iron breastplate is about a quarter the weight of a leather one with the same DR.

I'd say the best way to model the preference for plate over mail, for mail over leather and for leather over cloth would be use different semi-ablative stats for mail, leather, and cloth against everything other than crushing damage.

Plate Semi-Ablativeness: 12/1
Mail Semi-Ablativeness: 9/1
Leather Semi-Ablativeness: 6/1
Cloth Semi-Ablativeness: 3/1

Now, that type of bookkeeping might be more than some people would be interested in, so we could tell players that taking the armor into battle without repairing it between encounters when they were damaged gives them a "Malf #" which keeps dropping as it continues to take damage.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

I'd also note that cloth armour should probably be ablative to burning (and possibly cutting) damage.

A side note: I'm avoiding addressing issues like this, the problem of mail's split DR and what it should apply to, etc. I'm not touching armor damage in general, as well.

Those kinds of issues would be a separate endeavor, although probably easier to tackle once the basics of the table are sorted out. I'm looking to have minimal disruption and relearning of rules or rules variations, to make it easier to change mid-campaign and move on.

FWIW, I'd love to shake things up more, but I suspect a lot of people would rather not, or would wait until Low Tech 4e eventually comes out and go with whatever's in there.

[Bruno]

I'm suffering from a noun-deficiency.

I put down the Banded Iron Corsolet, but that covers torso and groin. The old "Lorica segmentata" was Torso only, and fits nicely with the studded leather skirt to make some very roman armor. I'd like to use a less culture-specific name than "Lorica segmentata", because of the use of banded iron armor in Asia. I'm open to any suggestions - Right now I still have it as "Lorica segmentata" but it's annoying me.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Leather definitely can be made at TL 0, although TL0 leather may be slightly more vulnerable to the elements (up for debate). I don't know about the gloves being TL 1 or 0, as a clothing technology. I'm not sure anyone does, unfortunately.

Of the two TL0 cultures that I'm most familiar with (Canadian Inuit, and Australian Aborigines) neither used gloves pre-contact, but that's because in the Arctic gloves just aren't good enough and you need mittens, and in Australia, that much clothing is stupid. The aborigines skipped armor technology in general, actually - not sure if any of their cultures even had shields.

Sewing needles are TL0, but I doubt that a bone needle could poke a hole in leather -- you would first need to make a hole with a burin, then draw thread (sinew) with a needle. Woven cloth that could be sewn continuously in the modern method is TL1, as are metal needles that could poke holes in leather without breaking a lot. I'd think that making leather gloves at TL0, while potentially possible, would be stupidly inconvenient and slow.

The idea of Australian Aborigines (or any Australians) trying to fight in armor is funny. Anyone who tried to wear armor in Australia would probably kill themselves with heatstroke before they even saw the enemy.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

A DR 4 iron breastplate is about a quarter the weight of a leather one with the same DR.

Good to know. What would you say is the weight of a cloth corslet (such as a linothorax) vs a leather breastplate of the same DR?
Er, and what is the weight of a DR 4 iron breastplate, do you know? All I have written down is a DR 5 breastplate for 12 lbs, in TL3.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Mail is definitely TL2 but there are Persian mail shirts made entirely of bronze dating to the 6th century AD.

Can you please give me a guideline for calculating the price (in a TL1 setting) of a bronze armor item, from the price of the corresponding iron version?

Also, what should I do with bronze armor that had no historical corresponding iron version? Or for situations where the iron versions change over TL change. For example, a TL3 iron breastplate is DR5 and weights 12 lbs. But a TL4 corslet is DR6 and weighs only 15 lbs, while covering twice the area. Clearly a technology advance has occured. Does it make sense to base a TL1 bronze corslet on the TL4 corslet, in terms of DR and weight, while basing a TL1 bronze breastplate on the TL3 breastplate?

[shiruba]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I'm suffering from a noun-deficiency.

I put down the Banded Iron Corsolet, but that covers torso and groin. The old "Lorica segmentata" was Torso only, and fits nicely with the studded leather skirt to make some very roman armor. I'd like to use a less culture-specific name than "Lorica segmentata", because of the use of banded iron armor in Asia. I'm open to any suggestions - Right now I still have it as "Lorica segmentata" but it's annoying me.

Well, Segmentata means "segmented" , "in segments", etc.

Lorica means "connected with bands" (not so sure about this one)

So maybe... Banded Armor? Segmented Armor? Laminated Armor?