My adjusted Armor Tables

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I am thinking that Low Tech 4e will be ready before a PDF collaboration is finished

Is that extreme pessimism about the pdf or extreme optimism about "Low Tech"?
Even if the latter, how optimistic are you that SJG will actually use realistic armor weights and statistics?

I won't believe anything until I see it.

[Kyle Aaron]

Forget about a collab, Bruno already did the work for us, I'm just waiting for her pdf.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Wikipedia, oh unreliable source that it is, says that greathelms were normally designed to be worn over other helmets, giving the wearer the choice between greater vision and breathing or greater defense. It also gave a weight range. The table entry therefore reflects these, using the fudge factors mentioned earlier.

I will not answer for "normally" but I have seen the "nested helms" arrangement. It was in a noble's battle harness in mid-14th century Italy.

There was mail coif first and a simple peaked helmet over that and a separate peaked greathelm (full face, eyeslits and breath-holes, no movable visor) that obviously fit over the first helm, sitting firmly on top of it.

Some other types of greathelms like the earlier cylindrical "Tower" helms wouldn't have handled the "nesting" effect but God only knows what the "normal" user wore under one of those. There was almost certainly a lot of variability.

Incidentally, when you start looking at the details of real world armor between simple chain and full plate you get a _lot_ of layering over various parts of the body. Just personally, I'd balk at trying to literally detail _all_ of it and do generic "suits" instead.

Sometimes reality is just too complicated to model in a game.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I am thinking that Low Tech 4e will be ready before a PDF collaboration is finished

But we don't know how accurate it will be.

Actually, I didn't know SJG was making it. I thought they had no plans for Low Tech.

[Kyle Aaron]

"Actually, I didn't know SJG was making it. I thought they had no plans for Low Tech."

I do know contracts have been signed for a three volume series of supplements for Low Tech - one on people, one on warfare, and another on economics - though Low Tech itself has not been contracted for, showing once again that game companies are run by ordinary geeks just like the rest of us ;) More than that SJGames will have to tell us...

Come on, Bruno, hurry up and give us the pdf, anyone would think you had a life to live or something :p

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

I can't fathom why SJG would decide never to make Low Tech 4e. I sure hope it gets contracted soon!

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I will not answer for "normally" but I have seen the "nested helms" arrangement. It was in a noble's battle harness in mid-14th century Italy.

There was mail coif first and a simple peaked helmet over that and a separate peaked greathelm (full face, eyeslits and breath-holes, no movable visor) that obviously fit over the first helm, sitting firmly on top of it.

The greathelm is the only instance where I would suspend the armour layering rules that forbid two types of rigid armour to be worn on top of each other.

Incidentally, when you start looking at the details of real world armor between simple chain and full plate you get a _lot_ of layering over various parts of the body. Just personally, I'd balk at trying to literally detail _all_ of it and do generic "suits" instead.

Why not just separate armour into its component parts and apply the armour layering rules?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Why not just separate armour into its component parts and apply the armour layering rules?

Because there were 3 layers over some parts and only 1 layer over others and some of it was plate and some of it was chain and some of it was probably hardened leather and...

Too much detail.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by RobKamm

I should have looked in the Wallace Collection Catalogues first, it would have saved time. From vol. 1

Sabatons:
en suite w/ greaves?: 2lbs 12oz/2lbs 13oz, 2lbs 13.5oz (only one survives), 2lbs 13oz/2lbs 15oz (2 sets with this weight), 3lbs .5oz/3lbs 2oz, 3lbs 5oz/3lbs 7oz, 3lbs 11oz/3lbs 11.5oz, 3lbs 12oz (both sides), 3lbs 10.5oz/4lbs 3oz, 4lbs 8.25oz/4lbs 13.5oz, 5lbs 14oz/5lbs 15oz

Left and Right sabatons are separated by slashes. I do not have photos, so while they are described as having the greaves I'm not certain that the weights include both pieces.

I'm more confident that these figures are for just the sabatons:
14.5oz/14.5oz

Anyway, that gives you some numbers to play with.

The question is, of course, how thick the metal is on the 14.5 oz sabotons vs the 5.93 lbs sabotons (which possibly have greaves).

Don't forget that the armor table listing is for a pair - which actually puts the 7 lbs from the basic set fairly within the range of your numbers, although at the high end (those numbers probably include greaves, so should offer partial leg protection... but the Basic Set doesn't really get into the details of partial protection either - see bronze arm bands protecting the entire arm, bronze greaves protecting the entire leg)

I've got some adjusted numbers, however, that should make you happier. I'm not comfortable making them much lower, however, for the level of DR being provided. I think your ~2lb pairs are probably DR 2 - that's what my slightly fuzzy calculations suggest, anyways, and would be the value I'd provide in absence of thickness measurements and general indication of what size feet they were sized for.

Another thing that would make the weights variable, I suspect, is the (sometimes excessively) long pointy toes, which change with status, fasion of the day, and how practical/impractical the wearer was. When one pair could be "pointy like cowboy boots" and another could have six inches or more of cone on the end, and they're made of steel, that's a lot of extra weight... Absent photos there's no way to tell.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Because there were 3 layers over some parts and only 1 layer over others and some of it was plate and some of it was chain and some of it was probably hardened leather and...

Too much detail.

I'm thinking it works a hell of a lot simpler to make some plate, some chain, some leather, and then you don't have to make a separate suit of "plate and chain", "plate and leather", "chain and leather", "plate and plate and chain", "plate and plate and chain and a partrigde in a pear tree" etc.

That way lies madness! Or sparta. Anyways, a very very long equipment list.

Sorry for not having the PDF out before this folks :D

[Bruno]

EDIT: The below link may be out of date. Use this link instead, which will link to my projects even if I update the files





I've popped the PDF up on the GCA Repository. I'll be creating a GCA data file for this equipment, and another to remove the existing equipment, but I'm not sure if I'll get that done any time this week.

Download Link from the GCA Repository