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Old 06-01-2018, 01:00 AM   #81
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Default I like desperate attempts to escape the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Gentlemen - Would someone please clarify for me what it is about making a strategic retreat out of the bowels of the Labyrinth when a party is injured ...

So, if someone would explain to me why those thrills should be a thing to be avoided, I would be pleased to learn why it is so; as *Escape* is one of the most basic literary plots all on it's own - let alone as a plot-point inside a larger story-arc.

Anyone, please, clue me in.

Thanks. JK
Hi everyone, Jim.
Very few people are arguing for that, so I think it is likely no one will bother to answer your dramatic plea. I was not going to, but then I decided that I have a iron in this fire, so here goes...

Steve Jackson has said that he is thinking of putting a "spend fST to heal wounds" spell into the game. Let's say it heals two points of damage. That is 4 days of healing, or 96 hours. If you can rest 1.5 hours to regain the fST for the spell, then you have a 64 fold speed up in healing. For many situations in a dungeon, the players can spike themselves into a a room, regain fST and heal themselves up completely. For severe wounds (or an active, organized enemy in the dungeon), heading for home might still be the best option.

Note that there are no real limitation on this spell, you spend 3 fST and get 1 damage back. Repeat as often as you like. BANG. Healing in TFT is now easy.

Given that is what is likely coming down the line, people have been debating how effective the spell should be. I think David B. alone has suggested making the healing spell much more effective than that 64:1 ratio. (And making it available to parties with lower IQ spells.) He has been up front about why people might want to do this. If you want to know why he is suggesting this, you only have to read his posts.

To be fair to David, he started off saying that he thought that Steve J. healing spell was going about healing the wrong way. Then later, David said, if TFT is in fact going to this model (where player take damage in a fight, then quickly heal up so that they can get to the next fight), then embrace this model and do it right.

I've seen several TFT campaigns where GM's have added POWERFUL healing spells, so a number of people seem to like this style of play.

***

But I certainly have not been arguing for that style of healing. If you have read my spells, they speed up natural healing. Instead of taking a couple weeks, it takes a few days (for the low end spells). And if wounded PC's are down just a point or two, they can keep on adventuring and still heal. (You don't have to worry about that jumping over a log will tear open your stitches.)

People wounded in one of my dungeons, would certainly still want to escape. But then, I designed my spells to NOT kill the drama.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:56 AM   #82
Jim Kane
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Default Re: I like desperate attempts to escape the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi everyone, Jim.
Very few people are arguing for that...
Rick, very few, if any of us, are interested in arguing.

While I was pleased to read your response, although I still don't understand why there is an aversion to simply retreating from the Labyrinth while still able to do so, versus adding a Healing Spell to the system - that is the question I am seeking clarity on.

As I stated, some of the greatest TFT dramas I have ever experienced came about while running for the safety of the surface; hoping to make it out alive, and not run into anything along the way - because we didn't have a wizard who could heal us further.

Even the Monty Python guys were good with "run away! run away!" ;-D

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-01-2018 at 05:44 AM. Reason: Truncation
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Old 06-01-2018, 04:41 AM   #83
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Gentlemen - Would someone please clarify for me what it is about making a strategic retreat out of the bowels ...
It's not fun for me. I like my heroes keep heroing, rather than conceding to the weaknesses of the flesh and walking away to heal up. Indiana Jones didn't take a week off after being dragged a few miles by the Nazi truck. He sucked it up and kept heroing.

Some folks enjoy a more realistic world, and some trade what they see as tedioum a for less realistic, but more appealing approach.

Folks roll different.
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:48 AM   #84
Kirk
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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It's not fun for me. I like my heroes keep heroing, rather than conceding to the weaknesses of the flesh and walking away to heal up. Indiana Jones didn't take a week off after being dragged a few miles by the Nazi truck. He sucked it up and kept heroing.

Some folks enjoy a more realistic world, and some trade what they see as tedioum a for less realistic, but more appealing approach.

Folks roll different.
I think this is an important point. Some people want a more "realistic" world than others. TFT provides that within the framework of a "fantasy" system. It has an internal physical logic that makes sense. I appreciate that and it is what keeps me playing TFT and not other systems.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:14 PM   #85
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: I like desperate attempts to escape the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Rick, very few, if any of us, are interested in arguing.
Must...resist...urge to quote Monty Python skit...

Ngggaahhhh...partial fail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvcnx6-0GhA
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:41 PM   #86
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
There is no HEAL spell in the original game because of concerns that it would make an adventuring party too self-sufficient. I no longer think that is a big problem.
I wonder what's changed your mind about this problem.

It's always been easy for GMs who want their players to be able to heal between battles to add in all kinds of magic items and house rules.

But for us old farts who imprinted on Death Test, it will be way harder to go the other way and take out healing spells once they have been officially added.

LOL to remember our gratitude at finding that "super charged" healing potion in Death Test -- 3 sips at 1 pt per sip, was that it???!?
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:19 PM   #87
Jim Kane
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It's not fun for me. I like my heroes keep heroing, rather than conceding to the weaknesses
Now there is a good, honest answer with supporting rationale offering insight as to what and why, and something we can learn from - I respect that. Thanks TomC.
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Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
I think this is an important point. Some people want a more "realistic" world than others. TFT provides that within the framework of a "fantasy" system. It has an internal physical logic that makes sense. I appreciate that and it is what keeps me playing TFT and not other systems.
Exactly Kirk, and Tom's reason serves to support my hypothesis that part of the special TFT Mojo is what I have said before, about how TFT uniquely holds up *by the rules*, and yet the vibe is custom fit to each person - like a good fitting pair of jeans, without breaking down.
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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Must...resist...urge to quote Monty Python skit...
I too gave into Summon Monty Python back on the Prootwaddle thread. It happens. ;-D
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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
I wonder what's changed your mind [SJ] about this problem.
Exactly! This is *always* the thing I should want to know from SJ, as well as each other; especially when we are taking about potentially introducing such a weighty change into the system. It is the revealing of the *rationale* behind making change to a thing, and the impetus of motivation, that allows us to learn and grow from it in our understanding of how best to serve TFT - and each other.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-01-2018 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:27 PM   #88
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Gentlemen - Would someone please clarify for me what it is about making a strategic retreat out of the bowels of the Labyrinth when a party is injured to the point that the risk/reward needs to be critically re-assessed, and resource management is on everyone's mind more than looking out for trolls, so to attack the Labyrinth again when the party is fresh and reinforced, that some seem to find so unappealing; that they would rather artificially *tweak* the rules-system, rather than make their way out to the surface?
For my groups the problem was that there was no *adventure*. In you go, clear about three rooms near the entrance, then the survivors have to retire for a month or so of healing. Meanwhile, the baddies reoccupy the room, improve their defenses a bit (more creatures, or better armor, or better weapons, or maybe some booby traps), the group returns, re-clears the same three rooms, retires to the local ville for another month or so of healing, rinse, repeat. Literally no chance of actually penetrating to the heart of the dungeon...

So, at that point you have to start creating deus ex machina types of things (oh, look, a timely healing potion), ro paying the orcs extra stupid, or nerfing them so the group can proceed a bit further, etc., etc. -- all of which don't actually pass the common sense test in a dungeon you're trying to play "realistically" (that is, the way such a creation would be run by...well...you or me, were we in charge of it).

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Military Men have used the fighting/strategic retreat as a key maneuver for mobilized forces in bringing about eventual victory conditions since the Caveman fought in loose associations against other competing loose associations. Frankly, in my past campaigns, some of the most terrifying gaming moments were fighting our way out of the Labyrinth, scratching to get to the surface on limited ST, while the whole population of the Labyrinth Level seemed to be closing in on us as we backtracked our way through the tunnels, in order to get to the stairs that led to the surface-world above.

And not everyone would make it, every time.
You're sort of mixing apples and oranges here. Sure, at the operational or strategic level, you execute a conservation of force maneuver to engage the enemy, but not decisively. But at the tactical level (where TFT occurs) I have NEVER heard my platoon leader say that we're just gonna go in and hope for the best. We aALWAYS had a plan for infiltration, exfiltration, rally points, comms, and mutual support with the goal of everyone coming home alive WITHOUT going in expecting to overdo it and wind up in one of those "exciting situations" you just described. Again, reality is different from a game, but I always try to play the NPCs as if they actually cared about living to fight another day...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
So, if someone would explain to me why those thrills should be a thing to be avoided, I would be pleased to learn why it is so; as *Escape* is one of the most basic literary plots all on it's own - let alone as a plot-point inside a larger story-arc.

Anyone, please, clue me in.
Did you ever notice that those *Escape* situations were invariably the result of bad planning, poor execution, and/or bad luck, and usually all three together? The bottom line is that if you show me someone who plans to fail, I'll show you a loser. People plan around the possibilities and deal with the unexpected (which still allows you plenty of opportunities for *excitement*). Adding a tool like a mild healing spell simply allows the players to plan a little more aggressively than if it's going to be a "one-two-three-punt" series of adventures because statistically half of them are going to be so severely injured in the first hour that they cannot continue the adventure and then will need weeks of time to heal.

In short, I prefer to set the pacing myself, rather than have the rules do it for me by forcing month-long pauses for injury recovery... Which is why I created the Talent MEDIC (heals one point immediately, and allows the Physicker to do his schtick later without prejudice) and a minor healing spell very much akin to the one Steve is proposing, in order to let the players play instead of calling the night's session after an hour of play so everyone can crawl back to the local healer's office and start the lengthy process of healing up again.
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:31 PM   #89
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

JLV, I pretty much agree with all of that.
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Old 06-01-2018, 02:33 PM   #90
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
I think this is an important point. Some people want a more "realistic" world than others. TFT provides that within the framework of a "fantasy" system. It has an internal physical logic that makes sense. I appreciate that and it is what keeps me playing TFT and not other systems.
If I were going to write a FRPG (or for that matter, an RPG for almost any genre), I'd have "cinematic" and "somewhat realistic" settings where appropriate. The difficulty, of course, is creating a system that will accommodate both approaches with as little mechanical difference as possible.
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