The morality of Orcs

[Kuzma]

Having recently read the Lord of the Rings for the third time (not that your orcs need to be like his), Tolkien had a couple good patches of orc dialog in which they were not utterly inhuman or evil or savage. They were really not unlike some of the more coarse and brutal people I've met.

Thinking of those people, even ones I really didn't like had redeeming qualities, or at least moments of being less terrible. Don't underestimate the ability of people to overcome vileness for the sake of getting the job done. A band of orcs might never be a merry adventuring party, but they can be a group united behind a goal that motivates them all to look past their mutual Bad Tempers, Bullying, Sadism, and Blood Lust. And of course, Intolerance: Xenophobia makes them hateful towards most people, but pretty amicable towards fellow orcs.

[tanniynim]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Orcs ...Being aggressive/brutish is seen as a good thing...

...most orcs characters encounter will be rather aggressive and intimidating. A warrior will make it clear he's perfectly willing to fight, ... A merchant will demand ... proper haggling ... even a few blows. A traveller will be boisterous and may belittle or threaten the characters - and he'll almost invariably be armed.

For redeeming features, a popular one is honor with an iron-clad word. ... fiercely loyal ... respect for those ... who can behave in an orc-like manner

THIS is exactly what I'd do. It's not that they're evil, it's just a major cultural difference.

Look at cultures that value strength, violence, honor and loyalty. Like the "machismo" concept from Mexico (http://www.jstor.org/stable/3814061).

I really like the Orc Merchant example above. Every orc merchant will start off with an extremely high price. Haggling in a friendly way will get you punched and insulted. "Stupid, weak hu-man. You pay price I give you now or I follow you home and eat your children." Shoving the merchant and insulting his knowledge of the worth of items will still get you punched, but he's likely to work with you and give you a reasonable rate- especially if you split blood and smile after he lays a good one across your jaw.

Orc "treaty negotiations" are going to result in broken bones and black eyes and if your diplomat comes back without them, he's likely to be executed for not representing his tribe to the best of his ability.

Behavior like this is liable to cause all sorts of issues when dealing with other species. The elves don't react kindly to their diplomats being beaten and humiliated before being sent back. This kind of cultural difference can explain most of the issues between Orcs and other races, and even opens up some fun RP opportunities for anthropologist types who try to help others understand Orcs when the vast majority are of the opinion that they're just intelligent monsters.

The real difficulty for characters of other races is to know just how far to take it. Even a human who understood "proper Orc haggling/diplomacy" might accidentally turn it into a real fight if he's not careful.

[SuedodeuS]

After feeding my rats earlier today, I thought of another concept that can work well for orcs - greed. By their nature, this is more likely to be for objects of practical use (food, weapons, etc) rather than necessarily things like money. If you have something they want, they'll try to take it. They generally won't try to fight you for it, just grab it and yank it from your hands. If you don't respond in kind - refusing to let go, snatching it back, taking something of theirs, or even punching them - they'll assume you're a weakling and probably start taking more stuff from you. Dinner with orcs could be very interesting - they stay close to their plates/bowls/whatever and eat rapidly, trying to snatch bits of food from each other (and any non-orcs at the table). If you keep hold of your food (and/or take as much or more from them), they'll let up a bit, as you've proven you can defend what's yours. If you don't, you can expect to go hungry as they ramp up the thieving, and they probably won't like you very well, assuming you're a weakling.

A good option might be to take what I said earlier, season it with some of what tanniynim said, and then add in the greed - but only have it apply during mealtime (otherwise you'll likely be overplaying the brute nature and probably going from "misunderstood savages" to "total bastards").

[hari]

I think it's been done a little to death, but I will add in my 2 cents as well.

I immediately thought of the book The Invisible Hook when reading the OP. It's about the economic sense behind pirates and their behavior. Pirates, like Orcs, are known for (were known for) being particularly cruel. However, pirates were acting in a very rational way. It wouldn't be hard to argue that they were acting with high morals as well.

The main idea is that they are brutal not for the sake of brutality itself, but to cultivate that kind of an image. The more people fear them, the more likely their prey will, in the future, simply surrender to them.

Add in elements of being kind to common people who surrender but especially vicious to the leaders of their enemies and you have behavior that can be admired to a degree. Someone said something about Mongols earlier, this is also what they did. Being kind to the common people and cruel to the leaders would give Human leaders more reason to hate Orcs, and to spread that hatred of Orcs among the common people. Thus, Orc's bad PR is due to cultivation of that image by both Orc and Human elites. Both elites gain from cleaving their people apart from one another.

[Apache]

*reads posts*

*boggles*

Apparently, we Apache are actually orcs.

Who knew.

*thinks about it*

Actually, orcs are kinda wussy.

Just saying.

They're more like....hmmm...Navajo. Or Comanche.

Not as wussy as Sioux, tho.

:)

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

I've always liked the idea of giving characters in stories, including those told through roleplay, realistic characteristics and motives, though this becomes a rather interesting proportion when it comes to Orcs. Orcs are brutal and ruthless, they just wouldn't be Orcs if they weren't, but how do you explain their brutality in a realistic fantasy (I'm well aware of the paradox) setting? Also how do you give them redeeming features? Assuming you wants Orcs to be a playable race (and I am) they're going to need them. I guess the question is: what is the consistent feature in the party's interaction with Orc warriors, Orc merchants, Orc travellers, etc.

If orcs aren't inherently evil....then aren't they just ugly people?
;)

[Icelander]

I think of orcs as being 'typically' closer to extremes of human warlike behaviour and brutality. So if a typical orc is a typical Viking raider or typical Crusader seeking loot, you have a pretty damn bad race.

Just shift the percantage chance that a given individual is that bad from the human average to something suitable for your campaign. Even a race with a 20% greater chance for violent criminals is a race that humanity will note as being 'savage and cruel, as a rule'.

[Apache]

I think the Aztec's would have thought the orcs' were kind, gentle people, who taste funny.

:)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Apache

I think the Aztec's would have thought the orcs' were kind, gentle people, who taste funny.

:)

I doubt it.

The Aztec's cruelty was the cruelty of the ruling class, of people who could order death without having to fight to inflict it. The 'soldiers' were not used to wars, having long ago conquered all neighbours and reduced combat to a ceremonial affair.

Orcs, regardless of their other flaws, are usually portrayed as vigorous and hearty warriors. When pitted against a largely complacent and decandent empire like that of the Aztecs, they would seem like a race of supernaturally tough supersoldiers.

[b-dog]

I just think of orcs as monsters and they do not make sense in a Darwinian sense where the race needs to take care of each other to survive. For some reason they breed quickly and the babies mature and live like rats among the rest of the tribe until they are big enough to fend for themselves. They really should not make sense as a culture and are sort of alien to the reality that we live in.