Well, that went...poorly

[Axly Suregrip]

I think this has been a fun topic to read. Thanks.

Both large snakes and wolves have roughly the same stats as men, so they should be considered an even match.

As far as Snakes goes, I find them easy. Their low MA and no armor leaves them open to focus your attacks on one at a time. Say two men with Spears with MA10 should have no problem picking when to fight. Then due to the higher DX, they can disengage between charges without taking a hit, to then charge again.

Wolves are trickier since if you don't put them down right away they use that higher MA to go to HTH. Best defense is heavy armor.

Or more pole weapons!

Whichever situation, if you get far from even teams it turns into a landslide. Or set up the scenario with advantages for the smaller side: defending from a hill top, etc.

Enjoy.

[Retief_of_CDT]

Hi,
Cool topic, and nice session replays.

I'm interested in running adventures involving encounters with beasts, like wolves, bears, and other apex predators against a Party of adventurers. So, it's informative to read how encounters with a pack of wolves have played out using TFT.

Comments about the relative danger of lone wolves - as opposed to packs - reminded me of an incrdible story told recently in the press by a wolf researcher in Yellowstone National Park. The animals have my respect even more now, and I wont be nerfing wolf stats in my games, although i might reduce or restrict their numbers to give the Party a fighting chance.

The URL below should take one to the article; reader beware, it is not for the faint of heart, but it testifies to the courage of these incredible animals. Mind you, read to the end.
v/r,
R

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...=.7ad784dd0a80

[larsdangly]

The essential thing about fights between animals and animal-like monsters vs. armed humanoids is to understand and use the rules for unusual modes of attack:
- Entering HTH vs. slower foes
- Large creatures doing 'push backs' and tramples
- Large creatures control of engagement
- Flyers control of engagement

A combatant that has these tactics in mind and is playing to win can accomplish a lot. I feel like many fights go against giants, gargoyles, etc. because in solo play or GM'd adventures the person playing them makes them do stupid stuff that places them at disadvantage.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by Retief_of_CDT

an incrdible story told recently in the press by a wolf researcher in Yellowstone National Park.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...=.7ad784dd0a80

Wow. o_O Really incredible insight into the life of a wolf.

Thank you for posting.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The essential thing about fights between animals and animal-like monsters vs. armed humanoids is to understand and use the rules for unusual modes of attack:
- Large creatures doing 'push backs' and tramples
- Large creatures control of engagement

I'll disagree on this one, as I find large creatures very frustrating to play. They have a lot of trouble controlling engagement, due to facing issues. The ones that can't spin in place especially end up in loads of trouble. It is very hard for these creatures to protect their sides and rear, at least on open ground.

So typical encounter 1 large v 3/4 norms. Rapid engagement. Any norms in front defend, the others make their way to the sides. At some point the creature is pinned and all the norms are in side/rear hexes. The poor thing can't rotate and is brutally and systematically murdered. One terrible scenario is where 3 good-DX norms get to the side hexes of a then helpless 7-hex dragon.Sad!

Push backs during shifting don't do much against good DX foes.

Maybe there is some possibility in the disengage option I haven't taken advantage of?

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by RobW

One terrible scenario is where 3 good-DX norms get to the side hexes of a then helpless 7-hex dragon.Sad!?

Dragon disengages upwards? Followed by flame attacks, and or just landing on the attackers crushing them? (4D on DX to leap out of the way?)

Actually I think I would let a 7 hex dragon swing round even if 'engaged' by three tiny humans - let it move its centre hex in any direction by 1 hex and then turn to face wherever it wants, doing possible knockdowns on anyone affected. I mean, is a tiny human really going to be able to stop it, and would your PCs really start whining?

[RobW]

Absolutely, a flying dragon is something else entirely. What has been sad for me are big creatures on the ground (either no flight or in a labyrinth type setting).

The rules allow for large creatures to shift one hex and push 1-hex creatures when doing so, with some (reasonable) restrictions. If the normies fail 3d/DX they fall, but otherwise they simply move to any adjacent hex, which generally preserves their ability to stay to the big creature's sides. So with good-DX figures, the push doesn't seem to help much.

Maybe the one-hex shift could be changed along the lines you suggest. RAW is no hex of the creature moves more than one hex during the shift. So the dragon can move side to side and back and forth, but no rotation. Suppose that were changed so that at least one hex of the creature moves no more than one hex. e.g. a spin and other moves would be legal. At least the dragon wouldn't feel so pinned, and could face itself against the enemy of its choosing. And if the shift displaced a 1-hex figure multiple times, make it roll each time to stay standing. That way, the shift could in itself be a more powerful form of attack against smaller creatures.

[Axly Suregrip]

I have often thought that the 7 hex dragon needs to bend in the middle. I have not tried playing it. so just the front or rear may shift, or when going through woods it can flex and bend through the trees... as a giant serpent dragon should be able to.

And very good idea about letting the dragon shift two hexes when he shifts. I never thought of it but a single hex shift blocks him as it does not fit his shape. Thanks RobW

BTW, I hate the cost of breath for Dragons. It's too expensive. Maybe cost half as much... or less. But cannot change a creature that spells are based on.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

I have often thought that the 7 hex dragon needs to bend in the middle. I have not tried playing it. so just the front or rear may shift, or when going through woods it can flex and bend through the trees... as a giant serpent dragon should be able to.

And very good idea about letting the dragon shift two hexes when he shifts. I never thought of it but a single hex shift blocks him as it does not fit his shape. Thanks RobW

BTW, I hate the cost of breath for Dragons. It's too expensive. Maybe cost half as much... or less. But cannot change a creature that spells are based on.

Sure you could, why not? Leave the summoned version the same and just say that the ones in the wild are different/better.

Or say screw it and change them flat out. The ITL police aren't going to come to your house.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

Wasn't what I meant. I thought the rerun with dog stats was fascinating, in fact.

It just seemed that the tone was starting to shift to "of course, you ran the wolves wrong, because they would have bolted," and that was detracting from what seemed to me to be the main point, especially as the OP acknowledged it in the first post.

If you meant my reply, I am sorry if you took it as nitpicking. I just gave my perspective of the gap between the OP's fight example and what he expected would happen. Either you debuff the wolves to dogs as previously mentioned, or you put more armor on the warriors or you use different tactics. All three ways will make the wolves encounter turn out as expected.

Or revise your expectation that trained/aggressive/desperate/controlled wolves are much more dangerous than one would think. Either way is fine. I too enjoyed the write-up and said as much in my first post. And I never said anyone was playing it wrong in any way. I just presented another way than debuffing the wolves to get the expected result.

Morale/motivation/circumstance is the GM's best friend. You can roll dice openly and keep the tension high, but adjust the encounter lethality by introducing morale checks or let the enemy turn tail early, late or never to make the fight interesting. Have the bear stand up and roar for a turn trying to scare the party away - giving the party a chance to retreat or give them another turn of free attacks. Have a guard **** his pants and lose a turn. Or have a second guard just come in as reinforcement if the encounter was too weak. That kind of a thing. Usually better than rolling all the dice in secret and having the too tough monster miss and miss and miss...

Something to keep in mind when you GM a campaign in TFT. It is easy as a GM to get caught up in the moment of a battle when it turns into a board game and make the enemies too efficient and always fight to the death. At least I often get caught up in boardgame mode, tactical hat on, ready to find any loophole for "my guys" to win. Not always the best way to tell a story. :-D