The Illyrian Sport

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

What is the difference between a Velite with 2500 Drachmae of property and a Hastus with 2500 Drachmae?

Possibly family background. One whose forefathers were too poor to serve might be happy with some time as a velite, but one who comes from a line of proud Roman farmer/soldiers might insist on serving as a 'proper' legionary.

But in most cases, I think the difference would be between a velite who just scrapes by the minimum requirement or, possibly, is below it but winked at, and a hastati who is comfortably over it.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Particularly, I can't see how it can be any sort of wise decision to throw untested youths into the role of heavy infantry and expect them to manage that job well. There's also a clear issue with training: was there a boot camp you went through, or did you pick this stuff up as you went, and from older males in your familia?

The latter. But the former existed as well, if you had a good general.

It isn't a wise decision to use untested soldiers at all. Which is why good Roman generals prefered to blood their men in easy campaigns, leaven green legions with veteran troops, station experienced formations in places most likely to be threathened, etc.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Rome puts roughly 18,000 men in the field every year, according to Polybius, and that's alot of mouths to feed, as well as alot of arable land not being managed. When these Romans return home, the poorer classes find their estates in disorder from their absence, while the wealthier ones benefited the most by this. But this is after the scope of my campaign. I'm not dealing with the Marian Legions at all, so there really arn't any mean under the Eaglers(well, the Eagles, Boars, Wolfs and whatnots), there are no centurions, and the legion is not a professional force.

Marius certainly did not invent centurions. And the legions may not have been fully professional, but they were paid and many served there, though admittedly with pauses in between, for twenty campaigns.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Another important variable is the average lifespan, especially for the 5 military classes. If Roman men are citizens at 16, serve in the legions from 17-26, then married and settled down, and made babies, we run into an issue: the Pater Familias. His power doesn't expire until he's dead, right? So I imagine that when a man gets married is about when he starts to get his own house, but he's still under his father's authority.

The authority of the paterfamilias over a married man who does not share his house appears to have been more theoretical than real.

Certainly, many men in politics had living fathers, but no one would have expected the father to share his son's imperium.

[Verjigorm]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree over the nature of the Polybian system. There's precious little information for us to make alot of these statements from, and alot we don't know. I don't thin kthe Velite was seen as somebody to be looked down open, but as an untested youth who hasn't learned proper soldiering yet. He's likely still dependent on his father(and it's likely he remained so for a considerable time) and he's not going to be trusted. I also find parallels with neighboring cultures in the use of youths as skirmishers.

Fortunately, until we know more about the subject, there's plenty of room for disagreements. I'm leaning more heavily towards the age-experience because legions in this time period are not permanent formations, they are isnteaded levied, used and then disbanded. The individual maniples likely persisted, and were promoted in turn. So you're always going to have a mixture of experience within any given legion.

Essentially I see being a Velite as being a precursor to being a Hastus, being a Hastus as a precursor to Principe, and the Triarii being the final position most plebs could reasonably expect to end up in.

[Polydamas]

Icelander, I'm not sure the assidui were as wealthy as you seem to think they were. When I last looked into this, nobody seemed to think that assidui were a small minority of the citizens during the middle republic, so clearly a majority weren't Wealthy in the GURPS sense. Polybius' equipment of two pila, a sword, a bronze pectoral, a shield, and a helmet probably cost on the order of a month or two's pay for a skilled worker. That wouldn't have been out of reach for most families. And certainly, 20 years after the setting of this campaign, the Romans were sending a mind-boggling percentage of their census population to overseas wars (a paper strength of 40,000 to 60,000 legionaries out of a census population of around 300,000 adult men).

Training in ancient warfare is an interesting problem. A lot of it, especially individual weapon skills, seems to have been left to the soldiers and their families in many armies.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Essentially I see being a Velite as being a precursor to being a Hastus, being a Hastus as a precursor to Principe, and the Triarii being the final position most plebs could reasonably expect to end up in.

Careful there. In your period, the majority of nobles and therefore, the vast majority of tribunes and higher, would be plebs.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Icelander, I'm not sure the assidui were as wealthy as you seem to think they were. When I last looked into this, nobody seemed to think that assidui were a small minority of the citizens during the middle republic, so clearly a majority weren't Wealthy in the GURPS sense. Polybius' equipment of two pila, a sword, a bronze pectoral, a shield, and a helmet probably cost on the order of a month or two's pay for a skilled worker. That wouldn't have been out of reach for most families. And certainly, 20 years after the setting of this campaign, the Romans were sending a mind-boggling percentage of their census population to overseas wars (a paper strength of 40,000 to 60,000 legionaries out of a census population of around 300,000 adult men).

The population of Italy at the time, however, would be on the order of 3 million.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Careful there. In your period, the majority of nobles and therefore, the vast majority of tribunes and higher, would be plebs.

There's a a world of difference between Plebians. After-all, men of the first class and fifth class were Plebians, but one had close to 10 times the wealth of the other. That's a large gulf between them.

Senatorial Wealth: Multimillionaire
Equites wealth: Filthy rich
1st Class(cavalry): Very Wealthy
Triarii and Princepes: Wealthy or
Hastati: Comfortable or Normal wealth(adventurer)
Velite: Normal Wealth.