Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

We have a ST13/DX12 fighter with a morning star (2+2 with talent bonus). And we have a ST10/DX15 fencer with two sabers (2-1 each). The morning star averages 3.11 damage per hit before calculating a weighted average since he will hit 74% of the time.

Nope, he's at a negative DX adjustment trying to hit the fencer.

Try ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, with expertise in both Pole Weapons and Shield. -2 to be hit and she uses this DX advantage to disengage and force the enemy into charging into her very fine javelin shrewd blow the next turn. Any xp flips into dx of course. Adding DX increases both her ability to pull this move off and her average damage per turn. At 35 attributes (9/15/11) her stand vs charge is adjDX 17 so you'd best use a charge and defend with expertise to step up and talk with her.

But of course adding ST is also very useful for her because at ST 11 she gets a jab attack to force you to close. (Just be thankful that she's very unlikely to one hand the halberd in Legacy!)

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Nope, he's at a negative DX adjustment trying to hit the fencer.

Henry, I said they were all fighting an armored assailant, not each other.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

Shostak,
So, I am interested in what would be your alternate solution. Say there is a fencer ST9 that fights with two rapiers. He increases his ST to 10. What options does he have if we are saying he may not use two Sabers with Fencing talent?

So you are saying the only way he gets the fencing talent bonuses is if he just uses the Saber alone. No off hand weapon, not even a main gauche? No shield allowed, that is a given. But a ST10 Weapon Expert may use a shield with his Hammer, but a fencer does not. Instead the fencer was able to use a second weapon.

So if he uses a Saber and main gauche then no fencing bonus for both?

There could be a few ways around this.

1. Weapon Expertise confers Two Weapons
2. Fencer does not confer Two Weapons
3. Do away with Fencing altogether, recognizing it as a redundant holdover from Classic now that we have Weapon Expertise and Mastery.
4. Break Weapon Expertise/Fencer into separate talents that each represents a single advanced combat skill.
5. Adopt a damage bonus for ST higher than needed for a given weapon.

Number One makes Two Weapons more like Fencer, trading off a bit of shrewd blow facility for greater weapon variety (that brings the possibility of higher base damage.

Number Two is similar to its predecessor, but has the characteristic (I would say advantage) of keeping abilities tied to separate talents. It also has the advantage of requiring a character to commit to a particular weapon pair, recognizing that fighting with rapier and dagger is vastly different than fighting with two rapiers.

Number Three accomplishes what Two does at the expense of making shrewd blows for those dedicated to fencing weapons a bit harder, but has the added benefit of tidying up the talent list.

Number Four allows players the most freedom and, if done carefully, could support more diverse character builds/paths.

Number Five might seem out of place here, but it would allow a character who fights with a rapier (or anything) to enjoy the higher damage potential of weapons requiring a higher ST while sticking with their signature weapon and thus offering a different path toward combat effectiveness than increasing DX and IQ to acquire advanced combat talents. I think that a common approach is for +1 damage for every two ST above a weapon's requisite ST.

There are likely additional ways to approach this that others can share.

My preference from the above list is for Four and Five, and keeping prerequisites modest (prerequisites, especially those with DX or IQ thresholds, too often push attempts toward near-automatic success because they typically give either a DX bonus or remove a die in an IQ roll while requiring higher than average DX or IQ). This allows your fencing type to wield two sabers by learning Sword and Two Weapons (Saber & Saber) and then acquiring individual advanced combat techniques through separate talents so as to be able to make shrewd blows or to become more effective at parrying, etc., and/or to deal even more damage by increasing ST.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Shostak

There could be a few ways around this.

All your ways around this are changes to the rules. I was asking, how you see the rules working as you read them.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

All your ways around this are changes to the rules. I was asking, how you see the rules working as you read them.

Sorry, I thought you wanted alternate solutions. My RAW interpretation is that if a Fencer wants to dual wield, it is either with rapier and main gauche or with two rapiers (as per Two Weapons ITL p. 41). He trades more facility with shrewd blows for limited choices of weapons that restrict basic damage to relatively low levels.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Sorry, I thought you wanted alternate solutions. My RAW interpretation is that if a Fencer wants to dual wield, it is either with rapier and main gauche or with two rapiers (as per Two Weapons ITL p. 41). He trades more facility with shrewd blows for limited choices of weapons that restrict basic damage to relatively low levels.

Well...I can speak to RAW application of Fencer talent. In our Saturday game, my fencer started with two rapiers. His tendency was to attack with one and parry with the other stopping 2 extra hits. He would make a second attack of -4 DX only if there would be no other incoming attack. So, forcing him to use a main gauche with a saber when his ST went to 10 didn't have a huge affect on his fighting style except to limit his second attack to much lower damage than a saber. However, based upon the discussions here, I don't see an unfair imbalance caused by allowing two sabers. It;s also my experience that the thrust attack almost never occurs and is discouraged via a - 5 DX. No one that I know of has achieved Master Fencer where this type of attack is at a much lower DX penalty.

I have played it where two sabers are allowed and it doesn't upset the balance of the TFT universe. Two sabers, One saber and one rapier/dagger, two rapiers, saber/rapier and main gauche are all legal combinations in my game. Although, parrying with a dagger only stops one hit.

One build with which I have been experimenting is Sword, Sword Expertise, and Two Weapons talents. The DX requirement is a little less stringent than for Fencer but you have to spend IQ on Expertise. So, other talents are harder to get at start. I have them up to short swords. They are basically fencers that can wield larger swords. It looks like a good build for a fighter but will be lacking other talents that would round them out for adventuring. These guys are part of a fighting squad where other characters fill in other talents.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

It;s also my experience that the thrust attack almost never occurs and is discouraged via a - 5 DX. No one that I know of has achieved Master Fencer where this type of attack is at a much lower DX penalty.

That's interesting; my experience is the opposite--that Fencers will attempt a shrewd thrust as long as they can still act first.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

That's interesting; my experience is the opposite--that Fencers will attempt a shrewd thrust as long as they can still act first.

My personal tendency is to avoid tough rolls because I have a track record of not being able to make difficult rolls. Therefore, I seldom attempt such rolls. Other players are probably more willing to risk it. How often do they actually make the roll?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

My personal tendency is to avoid tough rolls because I have a track record of not being able to make difficult rolls. Therefore, I seldom attempt such rolls. Other players are probably more willing to risk it. How often do they actually make the roll?

The ones in my games are making those rolls against adjDX of 11 or 12, so they succeed most of the time. With a fine rapier doing +1 damage combined with the damage bonus from Fencer or Master Fencer, they definitely put out some hurt. If I let the Master Fencer use two sabers instead of rapier and main gauche, the character would be ridiculously over-capable on the melee mat.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

The ones in my games are making those rolls against adjDX of 11 or 12, so they succeed most of the time. With a fine rapier doing +1 damage combined with the damage bonus from Fencer or Master Fencer, they definitely put out some hurt. If I let the Master Fencer use two sabers instead of rapier and main gauche, the character would be ridiculously over-capable on the melee mat.

I guess that we don't have any PCs with adjDX of 11 or 12 after the -5DX.