Fighting machine with IQ=8 and Per=7?

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

If he fails his initial perception roll, he gets no defense.
If he's not hit, he may not realize that he's in combat for a couple of seconds until he makes a perception roll to realize what his comrades are saying.
Once he does realize what his comrades are saying, he'll have to make his own perception roll to figure out where the attackers are, with Per 7 he can go through many combats without ever figuring out what's going on.

I wouldn't handle things like that. At least, not that much...

Indeed, in my humble opinion, it is not fair to require Per and IQ rolls when things become obvious. 8 and 7 are low scores, of course. But they are not handicaps. 8 is described in the rules as “below average” and 7 still allows a character to pass for “able-bodied”. This war machine is neither blind nor deaf. And if it is not clever, it is not a vegetable...

So, if the player had to roll dice to notice attackers who don't try to hide themselves or, worse, to understand what his comrades are shouting, why not using the same “rule” for characters with higher IQ and Per? After all, with GURPS, a roll of 17 or 18 is always a failure – and, in real life, very clever people sometimes don't realize what happens around...

Thus, too my mind, such rolls are not a good idea. They slow the game and are not fair at all: the player paid the cost of his Combat reflexes. If it doesn't fit his character, the best thing to do was to forbid it.

I would require some IQ and Per rolls, of course, but only in a situation where every other character would have the same rolls to make (with a much higher chance to succeed). But as soon as the combat becomes obvious for everybody else around, it becomes obvious for this war machine too.

IQ doesn't matter (tigers have a much lower IQ!). And a 7 in Per doesn't prevent anybody to understand instantly his comrades shouting: "Attack from the left!". Especially when he has Combat reflexes.

Never or almost never noticing traps, ambushes and foes using Stealth or Camouflage is, in my humble opinion, a sufficient punishment for the low IQ and Per scores.

[Stripe]

I agree with Gollum.

[panton41]

In addition to combat-orient places where he'd be failing, my big complaint would be the places outside of combat where he'd be almost worthless. If your game is entirely and 100% combat then it shouldn't be a problem, but if there's any kind of roleplaying involved then he quickly devolves into a liability.

[Beowulfenator]

What about Fatigue points? How are they relevant in combat?

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Beowulfenator

What about Fatigue points? How are they relevant in combat?

They're important if you're using Extra Effort; otherwise you lose one FP after a fight that lasts longer than 10 seconds (more if you are encumbered). Losing FP has the same effects as losing HP (half Move and Dodge at less than 1/3), and those effects stack with HP loss.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Beowulfenator

What about Fatigue points? How are they relevant in combat?

In addition to the above post, it's also worth noting that characters and creatures that have massive HP often have normal-range FP, especially in Super and Fantasy settings, so a Fatigue attack can bring them down much more easily than a damaging attack (after which, they are at your mercy).

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Beowulfenator

One of my players has generated a machine of destruction with ST 13, DX 14, 16 in melee weapon skills and stuff like combat reflexes, high pain threshold, very fit, hard to kill, etc.

This unearthly abomination also has IQ 8 and Per 7 :)

The question is: how can a person have almost crippling perception problems (i.e. sight and hearing) and still be able to hit a foe 95% of the time?

I think the answer is these aren't anywhere near crippling perception problems. They're notably below average yes, but way short of crippling. Crippling perception problems come with named disadvantages, and some of those do give combat penalties. Low Per scores, even absolutely terrible Per scores, are less about lousy senses than they are about *understanding* what you are sensing, and attack the people in combat with me isn't a particularly hard situation to understand.

Where you might have trouble is deciding if these people approaching are hostile or innocent bystanders it would be wrong to All Out Charge, or whether they are so heavily armored that you'll lose and should retreat. Low IQ, low Per fighters usually rely on another party member to make decisions like that. Once the fight starts you'll mostly be OK

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I think the answer is these aren't anywhere near crippling perception problems. They're notably below average yes, but way short of crippling.

Attribute scores of 7 and below are noted as being so limited for adventurers that the GM may opt to forbid them. Running the numbers and checking how often this character would make some typical Per-based checks that can be a matter of life-and-death, I'm inclined to agree.

This character would be rejected by every army which has any standards at all. He might squeak by at Per 8, but Per 7 is simply not aqequate to function even on the training field.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Low Per scores, even absolutely terrible Per scores, are less about lousy senses than they are about *understanding* what you are sensing, and attack the people in combat with me isn't a particularly hard situation to understand.

In military training, recruits are taught that combat is confusing. Officers learn that tactics is less about outsmarting the enemy and more about having a slightly clearer picture of what is really going on and therefore making fewer mistakes. Combat, by all accounts, is massively confusing and requires you to interpret contradictory sensory data that risks overloading your capacity for such interpretation.

Personally, I can't imagine anything more confusing than an actual battle. If anyone here has experience of it, I'd welcome comments.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Gollum

8 and 7 are low scores, of course. But they are not handicaps.

I never said anything about the IQ, I have no problem with that, I'm pointing out the issues of low Per.


Hard of Hearing is -4 on Hearing rolls, Bad Sight is -6 on Vision rolls and -2 or -3 to melee skills, these apply even if the average PC has an 11-12 Per, which makes a base 7 Per PC pretty much the same as a Hard of Hearing and partially Bad Sighted average 11 Per PC.

Originally Posted by Gollum

So, if the player had to roll dice to notice attackers who don't try to hide themselves or, worse, to understand what his comrades are shouting, why not using the same “rule” for characters with higher IQ and Per?
After all, with GURPS, a roll of 17 or 18 is always a failure – and, in real life, very clever people sometimes don't realize what happens around...

Thus, too my mind, such rolls are not a good idea. They slow the game and are not fair at all:

Yep, and I make normal PCs roll to notice ambush attacks too, though if the TDMs get their roll to 18 I consider it an automatic success and don't make them roll.

I don't hand out free super powers and omniscience to PCs, if the character concept for your PC requires that you always know when you're going to be attacked, you better have ESP and Danger Sense at a high level.

Originally Posted by Gollum

the player paid the cost of his Combat reflexes. If it doesn't fit his character, the best thing to do was to forbid it.

Combat Reflexes =/ omniscience.
Combat Reflexes doesn't even equal Danger Sense, you don't get free dodges and defenses with Combat Reflexes, you don't get super Perception with it either, you simply react faster once you know what's going on.


GMs who think Combat Reflexes has anything to do with being ambushed, or reacting correctly to said ambush, have a serious disconnect with both reality and the game rules.

[zorg]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I never said anything about the IQ, I have no problem with that, I'm pointing out the issues of low Per.

Sure, but there are lots of situations where you don't really have to roll at all whether you notice the enemy. With a low Per, you might be unable to identify someone (or someone's uniform), but you're not usually blind enough to completely overlook someone approaching you, imo. Especially when your fellows say something like "Now, look at that orc coming at us!".

In melee range, I'd only require a Per roll for someone who's coming up from behind... and I'd grant a bonus for trying a moderately easy task (unless the enemywas being stealthy, which is another matter entirely).

Granted, even a bonused roll might fail with a low enough Per, and under adverse circumstances (poor visibility, severe distractions), you'll be in trouble.