Why evaluate

[Enoch]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

Very true.

If the fighter had to pay FP according to the rules for every 10 seconds he fights offensively (lets say all maneuvers involving any kind of attack), it would be reasonable to take a lull every now and than. During that lull evaluate would be a very useful maneuver.

What about using it to regain FP? After you evaluate for so many seconds you regain 1 FP that you lost because of combat (Extra Effort or just fatigue).

-Joshua

[LordHelmet]

Originally Posted by Enoch

What about using it to regain FP? After you evaluate for so many seconds you regain 1 FP that you lost because of combat (Extra Effort or just fatigue).

Yep.
Loosing FP during combat and beeing able to recover some of it by evaluating would create more diversified battles where periods of fierce exchanges of blows alternate with lulls to catch your breath again.
The iron clad guy in full plate should be wary to take out FastFingerFred before he collapses exhausted.

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

If the fighter had to pay FP according to the rules for every 10 seconds he fights offensively (lets say all maneuvers involving any kind of attack), it would be reasonable to take a lull every now and than. During that lull evaluate would be a very useful maneuver.

Thinking of this, it could be handled easier.
For every 10 seconds of combat everyone who made at least one attack or defense roll during that time looses FP according to B426. FP can be recovered during combat by taking Evaluate or Do Nothing maneuver.

[LemmingLord]

Like someone said already, evaluate is very good when you don't want to be the agressor in a situation.... A character with self defense only pacifism, for example, should consider it in situations where a fight may break out at any moment... To make sure when there is that first exhchange, his character is as ready as he's going to be.

I also see it as a good "bouncer" maneuver. Some guys seems like he is becoming trouble, get in close, evaluate, see if he really IS trouble, then be ready with a nice bouncer wrist lock to escort him out of the building...at +3 of course..

I see evaluate not only asn an opportunity for a player to get a +1, but also as an opportunity for me as the gamemaster to give out details about the target freely that someone may not already have noticed. "The man's skin is oily, like he's applied some kind of ointment to it" or "the man's stance seems to be protecting his right leg."

[Kuroshima]

I would approach this in the following way:

Endurance Points
Every individual that has FP has Endurance Points (EP), at the rate of 10 Endurance Points per FP. Anything that causes the user to gain or lose FP causes a proportional loss of EP, but the reverse isn't true. EP can never exceed 10*current FP.

Each Attack or Active Defense causes a loss of EP equal to the encumbrance level, plus 1. Taking an All Out Attack or All Out Defense maneuver costs 2 EP, while taking a Committed Attack or Defensive Attack only costs 1 EP. Taking a Do Nothing Maneuver restores 10 EP, and taking an Evaluate maneuver restores 5 EP. Fit doubles EP recovery. Very Fit doubles EP recovery and halves EP costs, round up.
Unfit doubles EP costs. Very Unfit doubles EP costs and halves EP recovery (round down).

Penalties for low FP are instead compared to EP: The effects of having less than 1/3 FP are applied when having less than 1/3 EP. The effects of having 0 or less EP are as per the effects of having 0 or less FP, with the exception that you suffer 1 HP damage per 10 full negative EPs. You fall unconscious at -EPs.

[Gizensha]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

The other weird rule is fatigue cost for fighting a battle (B426). It is strange that the FP costs for fighting are paied at the end of battle and not continually during battle as this is the case for other fatigueing exercises like hiking running or swimming.

I'd presume that's both due to accounting reasons and to be a game mechanic representation of adrenalin effects...

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by swampthing

Yes, I know. What's not clear to me is whether Evaluating was the motive for breaking off, or the result. The fact that a lull in a fight looks a lot like the start of a fight is, in itself, unsurprising.

Mostly I suspect they break off because one of them is freakin' tired. There's a rapid-recovery cycle that's not modeled well by HP or FP (both of which are bone-deep injury and tiredness, respectively) but would be modeled well by some sort of action points with per-second recovery times. You can throw a certain amount of blows, and after that you get clumsy, suck wind, and you have to stop. Really good athletes can do this longer, of course.

Edit:

Were I to make a start at implementing something like this, I'd say that every maneuver you make costs at least one point. A one-blow attack costs one, a Parry or block costs one, a step costs one, a retreating parry costs TWO (one for step, one for Parry), a Jump Kick would likely be two (one for jump, one for kick, probably +1 for each additional hex you move during your flight). Rapid strike and dual-weapon attack would both be two. AoA would probably be worth two; AoD should probably only be worth one, to encourage the mode and allow it to provide recovery.

You'd recover at a default rate of one or two per second. Depends on if your assumption is "Step and Attack plus one defense" (using an average of three per turn) or something else. If it's one per second, for every flurry in combat (a turn exchanging blows with an attacker) you'll likely burn 3-4 points, and thus have to spend 3-4 seconds recovering. At 2 recovered per second, every two rounds of combat is three seconds of recovery, which cuts down the dead time.

going negative would likely just incur penalties to DX, IQ, and ST at some level (-1 or -2 per negative point). You'd be able to buy up levels of this short term endurance, but costing would be tricky. Being able to go nuts for 30sec while the other poor schlubs are sucking wind is a totally dominating advantage.

Pros: this can accurately represent the clash-and-lull behavior seen in fighting. It doesn't invoke weirdness with fatigue points. Mounted combat is more interesting, since the horse gets tired rather than you for all that movement. Evaluate becomes a tactic with or without extra bonuses because you need those lulls to keep acting.

Cons: VERY challenging for game balance, since it's an entirely different dimension. More book-keeping IN PLAY.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Mostly I suspect they break off because one of them is freakin' tired. There's a rapid-recovery cycle that's not modeled well by HP or FP (both of which are bone-deep injury and tiredness, respectively) but would be modeled well by some sort of action points with per-second recovery times. You can throw a certain amount of blows, and after that you get clumsy, suck wind, and you have to stop. Really good athletes can do this longer, of course.

Can you comment on the Endurance Points idea I posted in a previous message? I have absolutely no combat experience (not even with boffer weapon) so I have no real benchmarks for it.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by jallberg

[This has probably been up before, but I cannot find a thread covering the topic.]

Why would I ever evaluate? Unless my effective skill is very low (~5) the chance of inflicting damage is bigger if I attack every turn.

Mogens

Case in point. Over in the Play by Post Forums, I had a foe who was on the other side of the room beating on another PC. As my big ranged attack was an area and would very likely kill a lot of us and them I was stuck with either trying to catch up with him despite his higher move) or evaluating.

I went with Evaluate and it really helped me overcome his Obscure defense.

Others pointed out whenever your attack is subject to a contest of skills, evaluate is very useful.

There are also times when you technically haven't entered the fight yet but are on the field.

Evaluating before you do enter the fight? Excellent Idea.

[Gigermann]

There is also the optional rule that Evaluate bonus applies to some defense as well (Countering Feints and Deceptive Attacks, MA100). Makes it a little more valuable in a skilled fight.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

There is also the optional rule that Evaluate bonus applies to some defense as well (Countering Feints and Deceptive Attacks, MA100). Makes it a little more valuable in a skilled fight.

It makes it a very good defensive maneuver, yes.

It still blows for offence, though.