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Old 04-15-2012, 12:56 PM   #31
Allu
 
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by EtVous View Post
A few Facts:
How about the fact that the nobles did not like the fact that anyone could damage their precious/expensive to maintain and train knights.
I can't believe it took three pages for somebody to mention the law. Arms Control (Banestorm p. 90) mentions that the best any "civilian" could be expected to be allowed would be a short bow. I suspect that almost any feudal (or even just medieval) setting would have similar laws.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:33 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Allu View Post
I can't believe it took three pages for somebody to mention the law. Arms Control (Banestorm p. 90) mentions that the best any "civilian" could be expected to be allowed would be a short bow. I suspect that almost any feudal (or even just medieval) setting would have similar laws.
No. If bows or swords were forbidden, bows or swords were forbidden. The most specific laws I know of are from the 16th century and limited the length of swords, so were aimed at the upper half of society.

Long bows have been used across Europe since the Neolithic, and can range from ST 10 to ST 20. Until very recently, there was no evidence of a medieval self bow less than 5 feet long, and the evidence for short bows that now exists is limited.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Longbows are not anti-tank weapons. They're not harmless to armored knights but they're not that big a threat.

Also, if you're banning anti-knight weapons you'd need to start with spears.
Incorrect, longbows with Armor Piercing arrows can pierce mail easily, and before TL4, mail was what the elite used.

Heavy Mail have DR5 against piercing, a longbow does thr+3 imp, realistic it would probably do thr+2, a longbowman with ST11 and strongbow or +2 Arm ST would do 1d+2, and penetrate mail half of the time.

And usually, horses are less well protected, not to mention that a longbowmen have the advantage of range, a spearman don't, you can ambush a knight with bows, but will be harder with spears.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Incorrect, longbows with Armor Piercing arrows can pierce mail easily, and before TL4, mail was what the elite used.

Heavy Mail have DR5 against piercing, a longbow does thr+3 imp, realistic it would probably do thr+2, a longbowman with ST11 and strongbow or +2 Arm ST would do 1d+2, and penetrate mail half of the time.

And usually, horses are less well protected, not to mention that a longbowmen have the advantage of range, a spearman don't, you can ambush a knight with bows, but will be harder with spears.
How longbows do against mail completely depends on the bow and the bowman. Just by itself, the term is about as specific as "rifle" or "mace," and covers weapons with the same range of capabilities. Any type of infantry can be dangerous to armoured cavalry as long as they stick together and have up-to-date weapons.

Where are you getting the th+3 figure from? A Basic Set or LT longbow does th+2.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:56 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Incorrect, longbows with Armor Piercing arrows can pierce mail easily, and before TL4, mail was what the elite used.
...
Armor piercing arrowheads are near mythic according to the Deadly Spring article. And even if available would be very expensive, even more so since bows were used in mass volleys instead of pin point sniping of high value targets.
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:24 PM   #36
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Less damage and range for a tiny reduction in Bulk when it would take a cinematic archer to actually hit the broad side of a barn with -6 penalty.
In my Ärth setting, non-composite shortbows are not regarded as military weapons. Someone carrying around a shortbow and a quiver of arrows will be assumed to be intent on bird hunting, or something similar, whereas someone seen carrying a longbow or any a composite bow will be presumed to want to kill human-sized targets. Maybe deer, but maybe not.
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:45 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

Realistically, the reason to use a short bow is because you have short arms or short pieces of wood. Bows intended for use from horseback were also usually short, because a long lower limb tends to get fouled by your legs or horse, but didn't tend to be self bows.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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In my Ärth setting, non-composite shortbows are not regarded as military weapons. Someone carrying around a shortbow and a quiver of arrows will be assumed to be intent on bird hunting, or something similar, whereas someone seen carrying a longbow or any a composite bow will be presumed to want to kill human-sized targets. Maybe deer, but maybe not.
Changing the LC of shortbows to be less restricted seems a fair way to increase their use, if that is a goal. Don't forget, you could use shortbows for archery contests.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Incorrect, longbows with Armor Piercing arrows can pierce mail easily, and before TL4, mail was what the elite used.

Heavy Mail have DR5 against piercing, a longbow does thr+3 imp, realistic it would probably do thr+2, a longbowman with ST11 and strongbow or +2 Arm ST would do 1d+2, and penetrate mail half of the time.

And usually, horses are less well protected, not to mention that a longbowmen have the advantage of range, a spearman don't, you can ambush a knight with bows, but will be harder with spears.
Realistic would be using The Deadly Spring stats, which will get you up to about 1d+1 (requiring a top-notch archer of effective ST 16) and absolutely no chance at AP arrows before TL4. That would still have a chance of penetrating the mail if it isn't layered with something else, but also a good chance of not penetrating it.

As for the spears...spear formations are the most basic option for any force hoping to stand off serious cavalry from TL1 up until the latter days of TL4. They're not what you use to jump out and ambush a knight, but if you're jumping out and ambushing knights you might as well do it while they're not in full armor anyway.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:05 PM   #40
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Armor piercing arrowheads are near mythic according to the Deadly Spring article. And even if available would be very expensive, even more so since bows were used in mass volleys instead of pin point sniping of high value targets.
Armor piercing BODKIN arrowheads are near myth, using the usual typologies in formal language for what a bodkin means and looks like. War heads, barbed and broad, DO show evidence of being hardened.

GURPS, however, is not formal typology, and uses it to mean "an arrow - pi I believe - with a (2) armor divisor."

Still, good armor may well have a level of hardened as well, nullifying this advantage.

The point of that section shouldn't be taken as "near mythic." It should be that my research showed that the evidence is mixed, that such arrowheads, either a hardened war head or a "lozenge bodkin" as custom-made by Mark Stretton, COULD be made. There's also lots of evidence that in many typologies, the metallographic evidence of hardening isn't present. But then, corrosion would destroy case hardening, so you might not see such evidence.

So: "It's a GM call, and you have sufficient evidence in your game to allow, or disallow, any combination of AP and arrowhead as you like."
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