Limitations on Modular Abilities: Unbalanced?

[Yako]

Gurps Powers lists allies with summonable + minion (which, depending on which version, is either at least a significant limitation or only a further enhancement) as a limitation worse 50% cut off, so, there is a clear reference.
Demonic is a self designed power modifier which is, differences in fluff excluded, working exactly like the magical limitation (There are countermeasures in the game world in the form of holy abilities and there are mundane / environmental countermeasures against the power), the difference being that the countermeasures are holy / magical exorcism and the like, holy places instead of no mana zones and such.

I fully agree with you that pricing allies with such a limitation is open to argument, in comparison, spells only is - 20% after all.

Allies summonable is explicitedly stated as being "a supernatural ability" in Powers instead of a social trait, whether this qualifies for mental or not though is irrelevant though since social only is a zero point limitation for a modular ability and thus would not change the point value.
What abilities the ally has is, however, completely irrelevant for whether it is a social / physical / mental trait, just like an affliction doesn't change it's category just because it bestows an advantage / disadvantage of that nature.

I don't know which unofficial rule you are referring to with the +100% enhancement of player designed allies, but it is not necessary as the basic line of "working out your allies capabilities with your GM" can still apply to dmeon summoning just the same - which would then likely forbid such things as the ultra small always insubstantial demon whose CP are all invested into beneficial afflictions or similar easy ways to abuse allies.

Preparation required is, matter of fact, listed as a legitimate limitation on modular abilities to describe the additional time requirements to reallocate points and unlike "takes extra time", preparation required doesn't list any demands on the ability having to be fast to use. On the contrary, it is described as "especially appropriate" for channelling, which also already takes one minute of concentration. And, no, preparation required as of the Basic Set including the official Erratas does not depend on the normal activation time required for the ability.

The article, which builds a modular summoning, though based on the less restricted cosmic power is here:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=5583

This ability is naturally less expensive: For the simple fact that it isn't possible to rearrange points in as many slots as you like.

According to the rules, the cited example is sound and at best, you can argue about dropping the limitation for ally to 40% or even 30%. The justification for treating allies like other modfiale advantages like afflictions is, however, that allies need to be treated fairly and may not obey you ad libitum, thus, unlike a freely modifiable affliction, you cannot make them do anything (unless you take minion which either costs a lot or limits you equally).

Overall, if you yourself demand sources, it would be only polite to quote yours (the named FAQ) as well - as would be consulting the rules you claim to be violated beforehand.

On a note, the preparation required limitation should read "Preparation required 2 : 10 minutes - 30%".

The current version of the ability reads:

Demon Summoning: Modular Ability (1 Slot, 40 Points [=7 + 40 x 5 = 207]) [Only Allies with summonable and Demonic (-40%; Costs HP 2 – 20 %; selective limitations – 20 % {(IQ roll required – 10%; limited to a list of IQ demons -20%; Nuisance Effect: Uncontrollable demon will be summoned on failed IQ roll – 10 %) OR {preparation required (10 minutes) – 30%; grimmoir required – 10 %; Triger Paraphernalia in accordance to the demon summoned (common) - 10%)}) 42 points

Grimmoir could be either an accessibility limitation or a gadget limitation, depending on whether it is one unique item or just requiring access to a suitable library / carrying any appropriate book of that nature with you.
The accessibility of only a number of demons equal to the characters IQ (list required, changing it takes time in the form of lengthy study) is something which does trouble me a bit still, as it is a bit tricky to correctly price it, same with the nuisance effect, which might be interpreted as being worth more or less than 10%.
Of course it is also possible to simply add other appropriate effects to balance the costs or do away with the alternative limitations altogether.

[munin]

I think your current write-up makes sense (though I'm not familiar with your notation method -- check out Writing It Up, GURPS Powers, p. 115).

Limited, Only demonic summonable Allies is worth -50%. That's pretty much RAW (only the demonic restriction isn't RAW, but it's directly comparable to the spirit restriction from the Pyramid article).

If you are limited to a lengthy catalog of demons (either from a grimoire or memorized from a grimoire), then your modular ability could be 5 points per slot instead of 7 (but without the list/grimoire limitations). Your choice whether to change the modular ability or to use the limitations.

Since you can reconfigure the list of memorized demons I don't think the list limitation should be worth -20%. I'd call it a nuisance, -5%, even with the effort and time it takes to reconfigure. It's intruding on the slot cost mechanic so it gets a little weird though.

A RAW way to choose between limitations (which I didn't think of before) would be to use an Alternative Ability (you have the ability to summon from a grimoire and you have the ability to summon from memory but not both at the same time). An alternative ability might cost more or less than RPK's either/or mechanic, depending on the limitation values involved, and might end up costing more than the ability without any limitations at all, so you'll want to check the math.

I don't know what to tell you about your original question of balance though. RAW you can get a modular ability which costs less than the traits you can allocate.

[Yako]

Oh, yes, I fear the notation is a bit of a mess being made up half by what I remembered the notation to be like and half what I thought would be okay... ^^ ()

Hmh, true, in the article, they do mention spirit allies...
And a - 10% limitation should be equally valid as the -0% minion modifier...

Well, I do feel more comfortable working with the highest cost version and then adding limitations. If you do use the rules from powers, the ability ends up being too cheap - and even if it is as the rules state it, it seems simply wrong.
And, as I proved, you can gets exactly the different cost models by adding limitations like - 20% preparation required for spirit trapping and similar limitations for the others like the super memorization etc, which only adds a limit to the possible degree of limitations you can take for a modular ability depending on its cost per point allocatable - which is what I wanted.

Hmh, granted, it is more of a nuisance, even though I think ten points might be closer...
Then again, if I price it as - 50% for only summonable demon allies, it would work with the two hit point cost and as alternatives either: preparation required 10 minutes (-30%), Needs Grimmoir (-10%) and Trigger: Paraphernalia (Common) (-10%) OR IQ roll required (-10%), nuisance effect (needs to have the true name memorized) (- 5 %) and nuisance effect (will instead summon an uncontrollable demon on a critical failure at the IQ roll) (-5 %).
That would be an effective - 10 % limitation which would fill up the complete limit of - 80 %.

I did actually think about the alternative ability...
While it would of course reduce the limitations, it would also be noticeably more expensive...
And since the character has a certain degree of regeneration, the HP cost isn't too much of a problem (in addition to the fact that it makes his active abilities all cost the same this way).

Yes, the balance question still does somewhat remain.
Even when it is capped by making the different forms of modular abilities into limitations, it is still the question whether it is not more fair to restrict it to the minimum of 2 points per allocatable cp which the cosmic power enhancement from the pyramid article bestows...
Then again, the ability from the article clearly does have quite some advantages compared to the single slot version, thus...

Ah, I surely would love to hear from the people who actually made that advantage... ^^ ()

On a side note, the article isn't quite NEW, so, I was wodnering, has there been any further official ruling on this matter?

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Yako

Overall, if you yourself demand sources, it would be only polite to quote yours (the named FAQ) as well - as would be consulting the rules you claim to be violated beforehand.

If you can point out where I demanded anything or accused you of violating anything, I'll apologize. You asked for input on why the limitation situation was unbalanced, and I gave you my opinion: it's not that the build breaks the rules, but that the rules given are not what they could be.

[zorg]

The reason this ability is excessively cheap because you're not using Cosmic Modular Ability, but one of the pre-limited versions. That isn't strictly illegal, but since CMM is basically the un-modded ability, and the other versions (Chip Slots, Super-Mem, etc) are basically predesigned variations, you can get an abusive result this way.

imo, going by the - to me - obvious intent of the rules, you should only ever allow major mods on CMM.

The solution is, of course, GM control of the design process. The rules assume that the GM has either the final say, or has an active role in the design process. No sane GM would allow this, so the problem is largely theoretical.

[munin]

The most highly limited RAW example of a modular ability I'm aware of is the Seekersense ability (GURPS Psionic Powers, pp. 42-43). RPK puts a net -65% limitation on Super-Memorization which gets its pool cost down to 1.05:1, making the ability cost only 2 points more than the specializable trait allocated (because of its slot cost).

So you definitely can go below the 2:1 ratio of a highly-limited Cosmic Power.

[Yako]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

If you can point out where I demanded anything or accused you of violating anything, I'll apologize. You asked for input on why the limitation situation was unbalanced, and I gave you my opinion: it's not that the build breaks the rules, but that the rules given are not what they could be.

No, pardon perhaps this wasn't clearly enough formulated, what I was referring to was you stating that the advantage was contrary to a certain number of rules, which however was not the case.
I am, stemming from negative experience from other systems, perhaps a bit weary of the kind of rule discussions which end up in having to (unfortunately often repeatedly) quote passages of the rulebooks because many people give their opinion why something should not work instead on stating why it does actually not do so.

I was perhaps a bit harsh because most of your input was listing ruletransgressions which did not apply, and I appologize.

However, I am still curious, which FAQ are you referring to?
You just mentioned "the FAQ" without giving a link which I would have liked and thought as much common courtesy as linking to the article where I got many of the answers regarding modular ability summoning.

As said before, I agree that the rules for modular abilities could use more streamlining to prevent abusing the possibility to both limit it through limitations and alternative base costs.

But the problem is and this also applies to zorg's post is that the rules actually DO give us slotted modular abilities as the basic form of the advantage, it is the slot-less cosmic power which is the deviation from the basic model, not the other way around.
And it doesn't help that there is no ruling whatsoever that restricts limitations, moreso, the rules actually specifically state that many limitations ONLY apply to the ability to rearrange points (specifically preparation required).
The basic assumption that no modular ability should be cheaper than the abilities you can obtain through it is easy.
After all, if not at least this is guaranteed, a player could basically create an almost infinite loop of modular abilities which could, ultimately, give him a ability worth hundreds of points for practically nothing.
But is there any rule which states how much a point of modular ability has to cost?
Just assuming it has to be based on cosmic power seems nonsensical to me, why force a player to pay for the ability to divide in as many slots as required if this option is actually not desired?
More than anything, Powers gives an explicit mechanic for the modular abilities in slots, the priciest version of which is identical to cosmic power in anything but the ability to freely rearrange it into slots.
It does make sense (and works just as well as proven) to make any restricted slotted modular abilities as limitations of this trait, but making slotted into a limitation of cosmic power does seem rather cumbersome.

The rulebooks are actually flat out suggesting to use Super Memorization and spells only, which does set a precedent for using the trait limitation on slotted advantages: and after all, it DOES have justification that a very narrow category of abilities should cost less, slotted or cosmic, than any trait of the category.

Further, the problem isn't so much major mods, you can just as well create a super cheap modular ability with a large assortment of small modifications, costs fatigue, takes attribute role, power modifiers like magical, preparation required (Or in some cases takes extra time if the usual time requirement is little enough to make this limitation applicable)...
The problem aren't major mods but the sum of the modifications.

So, if for example you, zorg, state that it is in your opinion not in accordance with the intent of the rule, then where is the borderline?
How cheap is a modular ability allowed to be when the modifiers only affect the allocation process (unlike for example limited use which, as the rulebooks state, does make the trait exactly into a Vancian magic equivalent (limited number of spells per day which can be freely chosen))?
The pyramid article at the very least officially sanctions abilities which cost at least 2 points per allocatable point, but that is for the unarguably much more powerful cosmic power version.
Thus, where is the limit for slotted modular abilities? Identical? One point per point? Something in the middle?
I think it is not so much a question whether or not modular abilities should be allowed to cost less than one point per allocatable point, that this is not desirable is clear.
But where is a fair limit?

Just making a direct comparison with alternative ability seems a fair approach, but the problem lies in alternative abilities being always quickly switchable without any penalties, while modular abilities might make switching so much of an endeavour that it looses its use in most adventuring situations, making it comparable to magicians in many systems requiring constant breaks to refuel their mage / prepare new spells.
In this regard, the big advantage of most modular abilities, to prepare for any challenge on the fly, is in fact lost.

No matter how cumbersome rearranging is, having an ability which can become a different one at all surely is better than having only one fixed ability (unless the reallocation is indeed so troublesome that it routinely will put the user into great trouble).
However, on the other hand, if reallocation is troublesome enough to make it unavailable most of the times where it could be useful (For example a modular ability which lets you switch between many different attacks but takes too long to reallocate during battle), then many people will find having twice as many points worth of abilities available constantly and simultaneously more useful.


So, where should the minimum price be set for slotted abilities?

[Yako]

Originally Posted by munin

The most highly limited RAW example of a modular ability I'm aware of is the Seekersense ability (GURPS Psionic Powers, pp. 42-43). RPK puts a net -65% limitation on Super-Memorization which gets its pool cost down to 1.05:1, making the ability cost only 2 points more than the specializable trait allocated (because of its slot cost).

So you definitely can go below the 2:1 ratio of a highly-limited Cosmic Power.

Thanks a ton, munin, that definitely does set an official example then.^^

I guess in this case the version of Demon Summoning I wrote up should be analogous.

Thanks again for your input.^^

Edit: Hmh, on a side note, since I don't have the book in question, how does the ability look exactly? I am interested because it migth be insightful to see which limitations are deemed viable.

[munin]

Originally Posted by Yako

...how does the ability look exactly? I am interested because it migth be insightful to see which limitations are deemed viable.

(Paraphrasing) Limited, Detect Only, -50%; Requires Per Roll, -5%; and a power modifier, -10%.

I believe any limitations are okay as long as they can fit your concept. If you are concerned about the costs-less-than-an-allocated-trait issue, then try moving some of the limitations to the allocated traits. Quite a few of your limitations could be moved in that way (affecting the summoning action rather than the allocating action).

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Yako

However, I am still curious, which FAQ are you referring to?
You just mentioned "the FAQ" without giving a link which I would have liked and thought as much common courtesy as linking to the article where I got many of the answers regarding modular ability summoning.?

The Frequently Asked Questions list for GURPS 4th edition is linked at the top of the home page for the game that you are attempting to play. The specific section I mentioned is here.

You might get responses more suitable to your needs if you could post in smaller, more focused bites rather than the longer, more epistolary rambles that cross numerous issues in passing.