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Old 02-26-2016, 02:21 PM   #51
naloth
 
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The easiest rule of thumb is to just convert to linear damage.
Isn't linear damage pretty much how it works now (multiplying the damage and you get a proportional increase in penetration)?

The two biggest issues we've run across is a) teaching someone all the details they need to know (GURPS is fairly granular) and b) that it doesn't scale well outside of human ranges.

Approaching b) by keeping the values constrained to a more reasonable range (for purchase, potential contests, etc) would require a non-linear approach.
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Old 02-26-2016, 02:38 PM   #52
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
The two biggest issues we've run across is a) teaching someone all the details they need to know (GURPS is fairly granular) and b) that it doesn't scale well outside of human ranges.
Eh, there are some issues with large objects not having enough hit points unless you give them substantial DR, and lack of resolution at the low end, but there's nothing really difficult about "this attack does 11,000 damage vs DR 10,000 on a target with 20,000 hp" or "this attack does 0.11 damage vs DR 0.1 on a target with 0.2 hp".
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Old 02-26-2016, 02:59 PM   #53
naloth
 
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Eh, there are some issues with large objects not having enough hit points unless you give them substantial DR, and lack of resolution at the low end, but there's nothing really difficult about "this attack does 11,000 damage vs DR 10,000 on a target with 20,000 hp" or "this attack does 0.11 damage vs DR 0.1 on a target with 0.2 hp".
The issue I was talking about was representing characters with high ST. Take Data from Star Trek, he's considerably stronger and that is a very valuable trait - but is that worth more than all of his other advantages and attributes combined? I'd venture a healthy "no" especially in that setting where it only comes up perhaps once or twice a season across 7 years of shows.

Animals are also often very expensive simply because of their ST, most of which they can't as effectively as humans. NFM and Size modifiers help, but the cost can still end up dwarfing all the rest of their traits.

Supers (4-color) really needs a better crutch, since right now heavy GM moderation and pulling attacks is all that keeps it from being a bloody (punching someone into a fine mist) mess.
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Old 02-26-2016, 03:24 PM   #54
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

Apologies if this has been pointed out already (I skimmed through this thread very quickly), but KYOS suggests allowing supers to buy Striking ST equal to ST. And Power Blow is standard for bricks according to GURPS Supers. Therefore, using RAW KYOS plus RAW Supers, tank-smashing ST is 180, or 120 if you dump enough cp into Power Blow to afford a -10 penalty.

Since the superhero genre brutalizes the laws of physics anyway, using Striking ST and Power Blow doesn't sound too kludgy to me. And I think the rate at which thrust damage increases in KYOS is still slightly unrealistic, based on how KYOS bow damage compares to The Deadly Spring. So I wouldn't want to increase the rate further.
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Old 02-26-2016, 03:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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The issue I was talking about was representing characters with high ST. Take Data from Star Trek, he's considerably stronger and that is a very valuable trait - but is that worth more than all of his other advantages and attributes combined?
That seems... completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I'm not saying anything about being linear in character creation, just that linear damage points seem the way to go.
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Old 02-26-2016, 03:50 PM   #56
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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That seems... completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I'm not saying anything about being linear in character creation, just that linear damage points seem the way to go.
Sure, I was clarifying what I was talking about. I meant scaling characters and comparing them via point value rather than game play.

Anything post TL7 also has the eggshell issue where damage scales so fast that once you overcome DR you tend to pulverize what it was protecting. When you're rolling to overcome DR120ish, that HP10 guy behind doesn't have much of a margin for survival.

(Tighter ranges, while cinematic rather than realistic, allow for a greater disparity in power level before it becomes so lethal.)

Last edited by naloth; 02-26-2016 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 02-26-2016, 05:51 PM   #57
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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I mean heck, think of Mice and Men, that's not even super-power and it's not even kittens.
Lenny suffered from some form of mental retardation, and for all we know also was hamfisted. He also could have had some form of Incompetence with regards to Animal Handling and a Compulsive behavior that he would try to "befriend" animals and stroke them (or anything soft but I digress). Kind of like how someone taking Bad Temper with Berserk is expecting to play a violent character, Lenny was designed to kill small animals... and eventually more. He'd find a field mouse, try to "tame" it, critically fail his roll and end up snapping its neck.

So... yeah, still not needing a special new trait and I'm depressed from remembering the novel. And the film.
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Old 02-26-2016, 06:26 PM   #58
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

If you're willing to completely toss the 'hit point' model, there are some interesting tricks you can play with threshold models. A basic threshold model would be something like:

Weapons have Penetration and Damage. Armor has penetration thresholds, targets have damage thresholds. First, roll 3d6+Pen vs the target's armor, and compare to thresholds for the armor. If we're using a 10xlog10 scale, a typical set of thresholds would be:
Code:
Thresh  Adjust
10      stopped
11      -7
12      -5
13      -3
15      -2
17      -1
20      no effect
Subtract that adjust from penetration and damage, and continue until you run out of armor layers. Then compare remaining damage to the target's wounding thresholds, which would be something like:
Code:
Thresh  Adjust
10      scratch (shock penalty -1)
13      light (shock penalty -2)
15      moderate (shock penalty -3, disable hand)
17      major (major wound effects, disable limb)
19      crippling (half move and dodge)
20      incapacitating (roll HT to stay conscious)
23      first death check
25      second death check
26      third death check
27      fourth death check
28      dead
The interesting thing about that is that you can have rules to buy up specific thresholds, so you can have someone easy to scratch but hard to take out, or vice versa.
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Old 02-26-2016, 08:11 PM   #59
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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Okay, but think about you or I and doing something like say, trying to hold down a fly in your hand without actually harming it. Try picture doing that one-handed. Or worse, trying to keep a butterfly in your hand without rubbing the stuff off its wings.
You mean stuff that would require a DX roll, possibly one with a penalty? I mean, assuming it was somehow relevant to the game. Try thinking about all the times you do something that could damage something else and how under RAW they do not normally require a roll. In real life whenever I go to read a book, look at a map, etc. there is a real chance I'll damage them; paper usually isn't that durable! Technically this is always a risk, however it usually only happens due to extreme carelessness on our part, bad luck, etc.

The thing is when you model this with GURPS, it only happens if story relevant or if you have a relevant trait, because if the system worried about such things, it would have to cover far too much detail to be a gameable abstract. So in GURPS, a lot of these things are automatic successes unless you do something that makes them particularly (and I'll say it again) relevant to the game.

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This is how ST 500 beings probably think of humans, so even without taking limitations or disadvantages there should be some difficulty checks for when dealing with things which are so delicate that even a lowest-damage roll from half your punch dice would mist it.
Only if the GM and players want that level of detail and won't find it tedious, and if that is the case, the character's high ST isn't making them clumsier, it just means they have a greater chance of damaging things... and it isn't worthy any extra points. Bizarre as it sounds, this is something I can reality check. Actually a lot of us can because of simple extrapolation: as a kid there were a lot of toys I ended up breaking because I was on the big size so I (in GURPS terms) thresholds for my ST going up with maturation a bit sooner than the suggested age ranges on various items (again, like toys) would indicate.

Now where my experience is a bit different is not in ST but in weight. I'm not strong enough to deal with damaging things, but rather I'm heavy enough that I must be careful to avoid damaging things because I weigh so much more than the average person. If modeling myself as a character, at first this wouldn't happen often enough to even be a Quirk. Then it became Quirk worthy. By now, it is just a tweaked version of Klutz (p. B141), where instead of normal clumsiness it pertains to my weight (and size). If someone where watching me, a running gag would be me getting up, forgetting that I need to move a few things around before I get up from my desk because otherwise, I send my (computer) mouse flying. >.> I'll periodically have moments where I will somehow "forget" how large or heavy I am and (if you're not me or the one affected by what happens), hilarity ensues.

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Beyond the mental aspect you cover with Berserk/Temper though, there could also be stuff like nervous system quirks which even if you are calm make your strength hard to control.
Berserk/Bad Temper was not brought up to model anything we've discussed; it was brought up to explain how certain traits (especially Disadvantages) can exacerbate the situation. In this case, if Lenny has
  • Low IQ
  • Hamfisted
  • Incompetence for Animal Handling
  • Compulsive Behavior: Makes small, wild animals into pets

instead of it just being his great ST that causes him issues, it is those traits. He wasn't superhuman, probably just ST 13 or 14. He doesn't even need all three of Hamfisted, Incompetence and Compulsive Behavior; with his low IQ (possibly also a low Will) he would get himself into situations where he'd be handling a small, low HP and low ST critter frequently enough that eventually, he'd mess up and something died. >_< The thing is... the creatures he is handling are so low that even someone with slightly below average ST could still break their necks.

His ST would increase the range of creatures he could threaten, but this is not worth a discount (as a Limitation) or points (as a Disadvantage) unless it is especially severe.
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Old 02-26-2016, 09:13 PM   #60
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Default Re: Knowing Your Own Strength - Tank Smasher

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I need a disadvantage to reflect being prone to tweaking my knee when throwing kicks or doing lunges or stretches.
If tweaking it results in pain and limited mobility it counts as Quirk: trick knee. It comes up rarely, but when it does, it induces temporary lameness.

If it's more common and handicapping, I would imagine using Bad Back mechanics but for a leg could work as a base.
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