"Help me out Here" + "Pollymorph Potion"...

[YappyTypeDog]

My friends and I were playing, and when this happened, the game became a 45 minute long debate about the rules, and the context of how these cards work in different circumstances.

So, one player has a pollymorph potion in his belt. Another player has turned a face-up door that is the 3,872 Orcs. He cannot beat them, and decides to use the Help me out Here to take the pollymorph potion, turn the orcs into a parrot, and take the treasure w/o killing anything.

The writing on 'Help me out Here' is very specific about only being able to use the card to take an item that will make the difference between winning and losing a fight. My problem is that the definition of 'winning' and 'losing' a fight is very vague.

Does winning require you kill something, or only avoid bad stuff? If so, at what point do you stop winning and start losing?

Can I use 'Help me out Here' to go from definitely losing to not losing but not killing anything?

Can I use 'Help me out Here' to go from not killing anything (but being in no danger to bad stuff) to killing something?

Another one that actually has come up: Can I use 'Help me out Here' to preemptively take a monster enhancer or battle-ending card (practice match or friendship potion) from a player who will otherwise use it to end my fight when I could win?

Has anyone else out there had these debates, and if so, what conclusions did you come to? We've got an idea we're working with now but I was wondering what others thought.

We've decided that you can use 'help me out here' at any time in combat to take an item from someone that will put you from having to attempt to run away to not having to run away, whether that means you kill something or not. But you cannot use it in a situation where you don't actually need to run away (monster will not pursue, or someone else has ended the fight).

Any thoughts?

[Andrew Hackard]

Help Me Out Here cannot be used when you are already winning. It cannot be used to take a card that is not in play. It cannot take a card that doesn't cause you to lead the monsters in combat strength (i.e., no Magic Lamp or Pollymorph Potion). It CAN take a card that would give you an instant win (for instance, the Churninator from Cthulhu).

This will be elaborated upon in the upcoming FAQ revision, currently scheduled for mid- to late May (we're tearing it down and starting over, pretty much).

[YappyTypeDog]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

Help Me Out Here cannot be used when you are already winning. It cannot be used to take a card that is not in play. It cannot take a card that doesn't cause you to lead the monsters in combat strength (i.e., no Magic Lamp or Pollymorph Potion). It CAN take a card that would give you an instant win (for instance, the Churninator from Cthulhu).

This will be elaborated upon in the upcoming FAQ revision, currently scheduled for mid- to late May (we're tearing it down and starting over, pretty much).

Does 'In Play' include items in a players belt (i.e. any face-up item card in front of them equipped or not)? Also, if it is meant to make the difference between winning or losing, why could you not use it to take a pollymorph or magic lamp to eliminate one monster in a fight with multiple monsters (when eliminating that one makes the difference between winning and losing)?

Also, thanks for the reply.

[AMOE]

I don't have Cthulu, so I cannot comment on that specific card that Andrew pointed out, but the way I usually use "Help me out Here" is that it has to be used to take an item (so it needs a value) in play from another munchkin that will allow you to defeat the monster(s) at THAT point.

For example, a weapon or any other gear. We usually don't show our potions and stuff to each other, so I don't see why anyone would keep a Pollymorph Potion visible to everyone else, so we've never used "Help me out Here" to take a potion. We usually keep it to items that can be equipped, but aren't necessarily equipped at the very moment, the ones that are "in play".

Also, when you grab the item you were aiming for with that card, and then come into "winning" position, we consider the card to have been PLAYED, and is thus discarded. You would not be able to take a different, stronger item if someone else adds more enhancers or something to help the monster(s), making you lose the fight again.

I believe however that, if you had the Dowsing Rod (or maybe it's wand of dowsing, I'm not sure), you'd be allowed to use it at that point and take the "Help Me Out Here!" card and use it AGAIN in this battle, taking another item from any of the munchkins out there.

Of course though, the item (or items in case of the Downsing thingy) that you take HAS (HAVE) to allow you to beat the monster(s) AT THAT POINT.

If I continue, It'll just become redundant, if it hasn't already. XD


So yea, that's how we play it. I never thought it would be legal to use it for potions though...


Here's a question; if you are carrying a bunch of weapons (but only using the ones you can legally use at that time), would you be allowed to take a henchman that would allow you to use more weapons, and actually switch them to being "in use" if you were a merchant from Booty, since they're allowed to switch equipment even DURING a combat?

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by YappyTypeDog

Does 'In Play' include items in a players belt (i.e. any face-up item card in front of them equipped or not)? Also, if it is meant to make the difference between winning or losing, why could you not use it to take a pollymorph or magic lamp to eliminate one monster in a fight with multiple monsters (when eliminating that one makes the difference between winning and losing)?

Also, thanks for the reply.

Allow me to be succinct: "In play" includes all the cards in front of a player that are face-up, excluding persistent curses. This means that ALL the Items one is carrying, not only those one is using, is susceptible to Help Me Out Here.

This game does not have a "belt" or a "pack," so please avoid using those terms if you can.

As for your other question, I'd like to understand Andrew's reasoning: SJ and I have allowed for the use of HMOH to take the Kneepads Of Allure, as long as there's another player in the party who can turn the tide and there isn't already a helper, so I don't understand why one couldn't take a Pollymorph Potion or a Magic Lamp. If we're changing policy, that's fine. . .

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by AMOE

We usually don't show our potions and stuff to each other, so I don't see why anyone would keep a Pollymorph Potion visible to everyone else[.]

There's this pesky thing called a "hand limit." Occasionally, you don't have cards you want to waste, sell, use, or give to another player, and you find yourself in the unenviable position of having to put out one-shot Items.

Here's a question; if you are carrying a bunch of weapons (but only using the ones you can legally use at that time), would you be allowed to take a henchman that would allow you to use more weapons, and actually switch them to being "in use" if you were a merchant from Booty, since they're allowed to switch equipment even DURING a combat?

No.

[AMOE]

I understand that you gave an official ruling, but I'm curious as to why "no" in that case.

A henchman, sidekick or whatever who could hold weapons for you, and having the ability to equip said weapons on said sidekick (by being merchant) would CLEARLY be helping you and most likely allow you to win that fight. Why is it not allowed? Just curious.


As for the "Hand Limit" thing, yes, I understand that, but instead of putting the Polymorph potion on the table, just sell it for a level since it's worth 1000 gold pieces, IIRC. That would just be concerning this situation though.

I understand how it could be necessary to use that, but showing one-shot items to every other munchkin reduces your possibilities of surprising them and winning a battle by the skin of your teeth, or of being able to run away without them being able to stop you, or something else that one-shots can do.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by AMOE

I understand that you gave an official ruling, but I'm curious as to why "no" in that case.

It's kind of obvious, actually: HMOH does not allow you to take any card that's in play, it allows you to take a single Item from another player. None of the Hirelings that you can give stuff to use are Items, and, during combat, you can not change the status of Items you have just because you now have a Hireling that can use one of them, nor can you play new Items to use. The Merchant is the only memorable exception to that rule, aside from HMOH, but, again: You can only take an Item.

As for the "Hand Limit" thing, yes, I understand that, but instead of putting the Polymorph potion on the table, just sell it for a level since it's worth 1000 gold pieces, IIRC. That would just be concerning this situation though.

Read again. I included not wanting to sell an Item in my list of reasons. If you don't find it valid, that's fine, but I think you'll find that there are other people who've said as much because they'd rather have the opportunity to use such an Item instead of losing it. Not every player sells stuff they can't keep in their hand immediately, and many people only buy levels when a) they have too much stuff sitting out on the table, b) need to catch up, or c) want to get close to the winning level just before they open a door and might potentially end up in a winning Level earning combat.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

As for your other question, I'd like to understand Andrew's reasoning: SJ and I have allowed for the use of HMOH to take the Kneepads Of Allure, as long as there's another player in the party who can turn the tide and there isn't already a helper, so I don't understand why one couldn't take a Pollymorph Potion or a Magic Lamp. If we're changing policy, that's fine. . .

We aren't changing policy. The Kneepads let you bring someone else into the combat so you can kill the monsters. Pollymorph and Magic Lamp get rid of monsters without killing them, and so IMO don't fall under HMOH's purview. (Although, I suppose, in a fight with multiple monsters, they could...hmm.)

[YappyTypeDog]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

Help Me Out Here cannot be used when you are already winning. It cannot be used to take a card that is not in play. It cannot take a card that doesn't cause you to lead the monsters in combat strength (i.e., no Magic Lamp or Pollymorph Potion). It CAN take a card that would give you an instant win (for instance, the Churninator from Cthulhu).

This will be elaborated upon in the upcoming FAQ revision, currently scheduled for mid- to late May (we're tearing it down and starting over, pretty much).

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Allow me to be succinct: "In play" includes all the cards in front of a player that are face-up, excluding persistent curses. This means that ALL the Items one is carrying, not only those one is using, is susceptible to Help Me Out Here.

This game does not have a "belt" or a "pack," so please avoid using those terms if you can.

As for your other question, I'd like to understand Andrew's reasoning: SJ and I have allowed for the use of HMOH to take the Kneepads Of Allure, as long as there's another player in the party who can turn the tide and there isn't already a helper, so I don't understand why one couldn't take a Pollymorph Potion or a Magic Lamp. If we're changing policy, that's fine. . .

I apologize for the use of the term 'belt'. We use that term casually when we play since it's mostly where we end up putting potions and the like which reminded us of old PC games like Diablo (where you put your "one time use" items in your belt for quick access). Is there a term used for all items you have in play that aren't currently equipped; inventory, or just called 'in play', or something like that?

So, the card can Only be used IF you are currently going to have to run away (does that include losing fights where the monster will not pursue you?) and only IF after you take whatever one item you choose, you are now in a state where you don't have to run away (you are winning, the monster vanishes, becomes friendly, etc...)?

I guess there's just a lot of gray area to define what 'losing' and 'winning' a combat means.