Martial Arts: is there an advantage to having NO styles?

[Plane]

MA49 mentions that defenders are able to ignore a -1 penalty from Deceptive Attack or Feint if they know ALL the styles of the attacker.

But if they didn't know any, then you couldn't know ALL of them to ignore that...

It does say "If the technique he uses with Deceptive Attack or to follow a feint
isn’t an orthodox part" though, so I guess whatever no-style people can use, style people could also use?

Something like the idea is that styles give exclusive access to some skills or techniques which people without styles could never get, so there isn't a style-free alternative to being immune?

It seems like the perk Style Familiarity would be worth the value for Claim to Hospitality and Cultural Familiarity alone... (that's 2 points worth) not to mention the effectively free UB you get for learning other stuff.

Not sure I understand how M145 'self defense' differs.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Plane

M

But if they didn't know any, then you couldn't know ALL of them to ignore that...
.

It's a fussy realism rule we got courtesy of some fussy realists. :)

The example used in the playtest was from the experience of Peter Dell'orto. He was trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Kachin Bando. When he fought with someone trained only in BJJ he knew what to expect from them but they didn't know all his tricks.

So there is an advantage here but it is gained with purchase of the Style Familiarity Perk for all Styles your opponent has been trained in. If you don't have the Style Perk for all of your opponent's Styles or even if has not been trained in any Style then you don't know what to expect from him.

In a way there is now a disadvantage in being trained in only one common style but that's the fussy realism part. Probably nothing awful happens if you ignore this as undesred complexity.

Savvy PCs will only train in common Styles if they are really a good fit for what they want and then they'll get training in some uncommon Style just to mix things up. If you look at the bios in the front of MA you'll see that a lot of founders of new Styles first got training in two or more older Styles.

So, it's like the case with Peter I started with. If a martial artist has Style Familiarity in all the Styles known by his opponent he gets the advantages outlined in MA. There are no other cases where this rule applies. Unknown Styles or no Styles at all and there is no effect.

[Polydamas]

And it is the case that untutored fighters often surprise highly technical ones. If you are strong and fit and aggressive and spend a lot of time moving and fighting, you can be quite good without much formal training. Technical fighters can come out ahead if the fight lasts more than a few tempi and they have time to learn their new opponent's approach and spot its blind spots, but its never a sure thing. Its always tempting to not practice the counter to things that your doctrine says is silly, and then someone who never learned that doctrine does them and you are too slow to respond.

In GURPS as in real life, without a formal style (Style Familiarity perk) there are some difficulties learning some things.

[TGLS]

It depends:

A) No Style Familiarity perk: The null set is a subset of any set, so everyone gets to ignore a -1 penalty from you.

B) The No-Style perk: You are self taught, and thus possess a style that no one else has learned. Thus, no one gets to ignore a -1 penalty from you.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by TGLS

It depends:

A) No Style Familiarity perk: The null set is a subset of any set, so everyone gets to ignore a -1 penalty from you.

There's nothing rules wise to support that reading. The ability to reduce the penalty of Feint/DA is based on having studied that style for long enough to learn the way that style is used. If there is no style, there is nothing to study.

Having no Style Familiarity (ie. no style learned) means that oher combatants will not know what to expect from you, but you also do not know what to expect from them.

While a character without a formalized style could technically be said to have a personal style, this is worth no points if that is all they know. Since the benefits of Style Familiarity is ignoring a penalty from other users of that style and the ability to buy Style Perks, a personal style offers nothing since anyone can buy Style Perks (1 per 20 points in combat skills, MA49) and there is no one else to be familiar against. You don't pay points for an ability that doesn't do anything at all mechanics wise.

Now, if a character with a personal style also knows a formal style, the personal style does become worth something, as it now functions as a way to bypass the penalty reduction against others who knows the formal style.

[Polydamas]

I would rule that to claim a personal style as a Style Familiarity, you need to have successfully taught it to others, thus allowing the social benefits of a Style Familiarity perk. The fencers I know who I would say have their own personal style (versus an expression of the same way of fencing as their teachers or sparring partners adapted to their mind and their body) all teach fencing.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

There's nothing rules wise to support that reading. The ability to reduce the penalty of Feint/DA is based on having studied that style for long enough to learn the way that style is used. If there is no style, there is nothing to study.

If you're using the rules in martial arts, practically any martial arts training picks up style familiarity (even stuff like MCMAP, which revolves around stopping people from disarming you of a rifle/disarming their rifle). How are you learning a martial arts skill without any style?

My idea is:

-> People who don't have a style for some reason are weak to anyone, thereby making SF perks important.
-> Learning two styles that overlap has the advantage of guarding you against someone who only learned the one.
-> Developing your own style (or no-style) makes even someone with a very similar training unable to mitigate feints and deceptive attack penalties.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by TGLS

I

My idea is:

-> People who don't have a style for some reason are weak to anyone, thereby making SF perks important.

This is not at all what the RAW says. Style Familiarity gives a small and conditional advantage to those who have studied all of the styles being used agaisnt them. No Style equals no advantage.

You may want to make ths Style Familiary Perk worth more but it only 1 pt. Given the other benefits it's already worth plenty.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by TGLS

If you're using the rules in martial arts, practically any martial arts training picks up style familiarity (even stuff like MCMAP, which revolves around stopping people from disarming you of a rifle/disarming their rifle). How are you learning a martial arts skill without any style?

My idea is:

-> People who don't have a style for some reason are weak to anyone, thereby making SF perks important.
-> Learning two styles that overlap has the advantage of guarding you against someone who only learned the one.
-> Developing your own style (or no-style) makes even someone with a very similar training unable to mitigate feints and deceptive attack penalties.

One problem with this is that style familiarities are a very optional rule. So you would be implying that all Deceptive Attacks and Feints in the Basic Set have an invisible -1 penalty attached.

Another is that its backwards to what we see in the world: both today and in the 16th century, untrained fighters are notorious for surprising technical ones in fights with weapons. Its a hard problem because you don't want to condition yourself to do the things which your doctrine says are unwise, but you do want to condition to counter them, and every pair drill requires someone playing both roles.

[AlexanderHowl]

Style Familiarity allows you to purchase one style perk per 10 CP in related skills/techniques, plus one style perk per 20 CP in combat skills. Someone without any Style Familiarity would just have the one style perk per 20 CP in combat skills, meaning that they can effectively purchase only one-third as many style perks as those with Style Familiarity.