Spear Reach is Wierd.

[onetrikpony]

In 1 hand a classic spear has less thrusting reach than some 1 handed swords; Jian, bastardswords, longsword, rapier. (B273, LT69)

In 2 hands a classic spear requires a ready maneuver to change reach but a quarterstaff does not.

Both of those points seem wrong to me. Any justification for the RAW stats?

Seems that a spear in 1 hand should have reach 1,2* (requires ready action to change reach) and in 2 hands should have reach 1,2 (requires no ready action)

Also, shouldn't a spear in 1 hand have a penalty to parry?

[Varyon]

My guess for the RAW one-handed stats is that they were trying to keep things simple. Yes, a spear wielded in one hand should probably be usable at Reach 2... but it should probably have a higher MinST and possibly be Parry U, as it would be quite tip-heavy for one-handed use.

As for a staff being faster to change grips, I think of that as a difference between the skills. Staff uses a lot of fluid shifts, but Spear does not, hence you needing to take a moment to modify Reach with the latter but not the former. Don't forget that Spear covers both one-handed and two-handed use, while Staff only covers two-handed - Spear is a bit more broad in scope (I think it may be the only melee weapon skill that covers both one-handed and two-handed use), so it doesn't have the same benefits as Staff (+2 Parry with a balanced weapon, free Reach Mastery, etc). As far as a Parry penalty, I think a spear held one-handed near the middle would be able to parry much like a baton or similar; those don't have Parry penalties, so neither would the spear.

Of course, personally I think Staff should cover two-handed use of both staves and spears, while a Spear skill would only cover one-handed use of them (from what I understand, one-handed spear use is very different from two-handed spear use - possibly more so than even 1h Sword vs 2h Sword or 1h Axe/Mace vs 2h Axe/Mace... the latter of which should be merged with Polearm, but I digress). But the above is where I think the RAW is coming from.

[Rolando]

A 6 feet pointed pole held in one hand need to be held at about the middle for balance reasons, so the weapon length will be about 3 feet, same as a broadsword, meanwhile a bastard sword have a balanced pommel and longer blade. Also the way those weapons are used allow for a bit more reach and at some point it gets the extra yard/hex of reach for game purposes.

Some combat technique probably allow for a one handed spear to reach 2 hexes, but a common user while using a common spear one handed will not.

[onetrikpony]

:D but... I thought I said that;

the replies pretty much cover the essence of my question. Several one handed swords thrust at reach 2 and that's what confuses me about one handed spear being limited to reach 1.

a 4' bastard sword doesn't have longer reach than a 6' spear nor is it better balanced for the thrust than a 6' spear held at 4'. So what am I missing that limits the reach of a spear in 1 handed use?

I suppose spears would be poor in the parry not because they're tip heavy but rather that the moment arm is longer regardless of where the shaft is gripped.

I can accept that GURPS is 'gamist' and spear reach is simulated poorly because the skill (in reality 2 skills) is so broad but that seems counter to the general theme of the rules.

thanks for the replies

[Farmer]

A bastard sword isn't a 1h weapon - it's a 1 and a 1/2h weapon. And when held normally, you get almost all of the 4' whereas with a spear you would normally hold it closer to the middle and probably get about 3' and you don't have a guard between the pommel and blade as you do with a sword nor for that matter a pommel designed to be gripped rather than just a shaft.

The balance and grip are different, and that's a reasonable thing to reflect in the stats.

Thwre are various perks like grip mastery, and so on that can let you tweak usage or even use other skills to wield it for different benefits.

[Pursuivant]

The other part of the spear's shorter reach, other than having to hold it in the middle of the shaft for balance, is that you have to hold in an overhand or underhand grip from an "open" stance.

That is, you face your foe with your arm bent upwards with the hand holding the spear near your ear as if you were about to throw it or "couched" so your hand is near your waist. That makes it harder to make the sort of lunges you can make from a "refused" (one side facing your foe) stance with a sword or similar weapon which can be held at one end.

If you adopt a refused stance while holding a spear, you can naturally grip it with your "off" hand, adopting a 2-handed grip and a posture which lends itself to bayonet-style lunges.

There's no reason why a strong person couldn't hold a spear at one end, as if it were a sword, while adopting a refused or semi-refused stance to increase its Reach. Treat it as a suitable Technique or Perk as long as your ST exceeds the required ST to use the weapon by at least 1.

While it's a bit odd that you need a Ready maneuver to change Reach with a Spear but not a Quarterstaff, remember that a Quarterstaff is a lighter, better balanced weapon. A regular old spear has 0.5-1 lb. of pointy metal on one end, which makes it less handy. A modified spear, with a ferrule or knob on the butt end to improve overall balance, might be easier to shift around.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

In 2 hands a classic spear requires a ready maneuver to change reach but a quarterstaff does not.

Different skill training. But honestly, I've trained in both (and polearms) and I've never understood this reasoning either as it's just as easy to transition grips with a spear as it is a staff.

Originally Posted by Varyon

My guess for the RAW one-handed stats is that they were trying to keep things simple. Yes, a spear wielded in one hand should probably be usable at Reach 2... but it should probably have a higher MinST and possibly be Parry U, as it would be quite tip-heavy for one-handed use.

You can, both stabbing and tip slashes, but usually it would be supported on the rim of your shield if you did so, and transitioning grips here should take a Ready maneuver (though I'd allow a Perk or Technique to reduce it).

And yes, it absolutely should take more Min ST (I'd call it 12) as when I tried it it was more a 'flailing' motion than a 'stabbing motion', but like all things, it's something you have to get used to and train for. You can also do one-handed swings and pokes with a quarterstaff, just as easily.

For a flashy look, go watch Troy with Brad Pitt, there's a great dueling scene where he goes whole ham with spear and shield in a very heroic spear-fighting style.

Of course, personally I think Staff should cover two-handed use of both staves and spears, while a Spear skill would only cover one-handed use of them...

Here's the thing... it's rare outside of eastern martial arts to see Spear one-handed without a shield or in a formation, and long spears are a different and unwieldy beast (more like a stabby polearm than a spear, also primarily used in formations).

So, you get what we got here. Less flashy european spear forms which incorporated shields or standing in formation, rather than the more fluid eastern individual spear arts in which spears are treated more like a slightly flexible stave with a pointy end.


Personally if I were to rewrite these rules, I'd make Staff a "fencing skill" (and drop the +2 to Parry which makes no sense in context with other "long hafted balanced weapons" not getting the same bonus) and Spears needing a Ready Maneuver to change Reach if you're in formation or have a shield.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Personally if I were to rewrite these rules...

I think a lot of players have questioned details of Staff and Spear, and have asked whether they should even be different skills to begin with.

I've played around with ideas, and I'd like to see Spear and Staff skills replaced with:

• Spear/Staff
• Two-Handed Spear/Staff

Yes, the same way the game handles axes/maces, flails, and swords. Easy.

Spear/Staff would be for spear-and-shield types, Two-Handed Spear/Staff for quarterstaff fighters and spear-only infantry.

Sound sensible? Lame? (A bit more on the idea here.)

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by tbone

I think a lot of players have questioned details of Staff and Spear, and have asked whether they should even be different skills to begin with.

Could also just drop the Staffs defense bonus, I've often suspected that was simply "ethnic cool" rules not being acknowledged as ethnic cool.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Could also just drop the Staffs defense bonus, I've often suspected that was simply "ethnic cool" rules not being acknowledged as ethnic cool.

It's also a "help out the mage" thing where it gives mages an excuse to be stereotypical.

It was more general in 3e where Staff got the same Parry bonus as Fencing and Short Staff (before Escrima got shoehorned into Smallsword).